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Switch to Forum Live View Poll Shows Pro-life Sympathies of Americans
4 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2014 - 2:21PM #41
Druac
Posts: 14,509

Jan 23, 2014 -- 11:14PM, Erey wrote:


Jan 23, 2014 -- 9:22PM, Druac wrote:


Jan 23, 2014 -- 9:14PM, Erey wrote:


In religion and ethics, inviolability or sanctity of life is a principle of implied protection regarding aspects of sentient life which are said to be holy, sacred, or otherwise of such value that they are not to be violated.


The concept of inviolability is an important tie between the ethics of religion and the ethics of law, as each seeks justification for its principles as based on both purity and natural concept, as well as in universality of application.





The key words there are 'holy' and 'sacred'. Ethics and morality do not rely on us being holy or sacred. We have created those concepts and they only apply to us because we apply them...not because they are real or we rely on them.


We created the gods and religion because we had no better answer for the way nature worked...but ethics and morality didn't come from some god...they came from the same source that created the religions and the gods...us. Myths are no longer needed to explain these things.





I don't think people need to be religious to find things like LIFE sacred.  It applies not to just religion but also to ETHICS (which I thought were imporant to atheists)    The rules of society are based in large part on life being sacred, we are always finding new layers to it. 





Again...you are not taking into account what the word actually means...you are just using it to describe the 'feeling' you have about life. And again...SACRED does not denote ETHICS or Morality...nor does HOLY.


Morals and Ethics are a societal survival mechanism. You want to be happy...you want to be comfortable...you want to live in peace...but to do that in a human society and to allow others to do the same, morals and ethics are required...ground rules...in other words. We propagated those ground rules with religion and the fear of gods...and the retribution they would serve if you didn't hold up to your side of the bargain.


My point and my conviction is that these antiquated belief systems that we cling to are holding us back as a species in terms of societal and human evolution. I actually believe we have the potential to live up to the inflated and self-conceited views we have of ourselves...if we could just let go of it and embrace reality...instead.


Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
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We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
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"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2014 - 2:29PM #42
Druac
Posts: 14,509

Jan 24, 2014 -- 1:55PM, TENAC wrote:


Amazing how the "settled" science changes!  Now are you steeped in the actual finding of Roe or the viability issue?  Do you know or think there is a difference?



No, reality dictates there IS black and white, right and wrong.  It is mostly society has a hard time finding it, thus we all acknowledge to live in shades of gray.  I have never denied that.  LIberals like to reside in their gray while conservatives would rather push in the progression, as you say, toward a right or wrong.




No...not amazing at all...this is how it works. I think you need to actually understand the scientific process before you can properly judge it...it doesn't really sound like you do.


We...humans...society dictate right and wrong. It wasn't magically provided to us by the god in your head...is my point. Common sense...really...at least to the rational thought process.

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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4 years ago  ::  Jan 24, 2014 - 3:27PM #43
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,913

Jan 24, 2014 -- 2:05PM, TENAC wrote:


Jan 24, 2014 -- 1:12PM, Find1Answer wrote:

Jan 24, 2014 -- 12:55PM, Erey wrote:


Jan 24, 2014 -- 12:49PM, jlb32168 wrote:


Jan 23, 2014 -- 4:36PM, Druac wrote:

Those that want control...if you notice...the majority of the loud and creepy ones are white-Christian-males...


I am PC.  I think that abortion is morally wrong; however, I don't wish to impose my religious views upon people in the 1st trimester.  I'm comfortable putting restrictions on the 2nd trimester as a fetus gains viability.  I'm cool with criminalizing all abortions in the 3rd trimester because I regard it as an action akin to vivisecting an infant.


Having said that, to assume that all Pro-Lifers regard the complete criminalization of abortion as an issue of controlling women, rather than considering the possibility that PLers are acting in good faith and honesty of intention to protect the lives of children (which is how they regard the unborn), is an assumption founded in manifest ignorance.


PCers really need to stop saying stupid things that assume the worst motives in their philosophical opponents.





I agree with you, in total except I would give allowances in the 3rd trimester if there were serious fetal abnormalities or life and death senario for the mother.




Late term abortion in this country is less than 2% of all abortions performed and for genuine health reasons.      2nd trimester abortion have a high factor for  health reasons also.     Many problems are not detected until the 2nd trimester.    Diabetes and cancers are some of the problems that come up.


Really?  What are the statistics on cancer as a result of pregnancy?  Or even coming up.  I dont doubt that it happens, I know it is probably more common for women to develop diabetes during pregnancy, but generally that is resovled fairly soon after delivery I thought, but correct me if I am wrong.


Abortion as a form of birth control is not the ideal solution to unwanted pregnancies but then again I think the solution is before the pregnancy occurs not after.      


But for that purpose you would keep it legal.  I mean, while it is distasteful to you, we are going to support the behavior?


I think it should be a matter between the woman and her doctor and a matter of choice.    I don't believe that taking safe and legal abortion away will solve the problem.   It does not address the behavior of the chicken merely focuses on the egg.     




Totally leaves out the father and the baby to be born.




 Yes there is gestational diabetes but I was thinking of those women who have type 1 or type 2 diabetes before they are pregnant and the pregnancy exasperates the disease often to the point of  death for the woman.    I actually know three women that died while pregnant because their kidneys were severely compromised by a lifetime of diabetes.    all three knew the dangers of pregnancy but went into it anyway and refused abortion even to save their lives.    I also know women who aborted in the 2nd trimester because of cancer treatments that could not wait until after birth.  I never said pregnancy causes cancer.     There are a myriad of medical conditions a woman could have that were not caused by pregnancy but became evident in the 2 or 3rd trimester.


It is actually a matter of privacy as to why a woman would choose abortion.    Whether she uses it as a form of birth control or as a matter of health is really between her and her doctor.  As far as supporting behavior I have come to the realization that the behavior of males that indiscriminately impregnant women  is the behavior that needs modifying.    Pass some laws in that direction or else I would say your ideology is failing it's moral responsibility.


 Totally leaves out the father and the baby to be born.


On the contrary.   My state has spousal consent laws on the books.   However I am in full support in focusing attention on the father's rights and responsibilites in regards to unwanted pregnancy.   I think sc are going at this bassakwards.     They want to close the barn door in an attempt to keep the horse inside.           

Human nature leads people to put each other in neat boxes. Some put all women into one category, even though Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton both exist. Black Lives Matter activists are arrested for civil disobedience nationwide, but we talk about “the black vote” as though Republican Ben Carson isn’t running for president and conservative Clarence Thomas isn’t a justice of the Supreme Court.

The Right Wing and the Left Wing come from the same bird.
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 26, 2014 - 11:39AM #44
jlb32168
Posts: 15,431

Jan 24, 2014 -- 1:32PM, amcolph wrote:

You make a good point.  My concern is with the leadership of the pro-life movement who indeed have the controlling motives which we attribute to them.


Alcomph, I have a seriously hard time accepting the idea that the leadership of the PL movement arises each day for the primary purpose of controling the lives of women.


The uninhibited desire to control is sociopathic and the people who speak at PL events don't strike me as being sociopaths.


Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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4 years ago  ::  Feb 26, 2014 - 12:19PM #45
amcolph
Posts: 20,246

Feb 26, 2014 -- 11:39AM, jlb32168 wrote:


Jan 24, 2014 -- 1:32PM, amcolph wrote:

You make a good point.  My concern is with the leadership of the pro-life movement who indeed have the controlling motives which we attribute to them.


Alcomph, I have a seriously hard time accepting the idea that the leadership of the PL movement arises each day for the primary purpose of controling the lives of women.


The uninhibited desire to control is sociopathic and the people who speak at PL events don't strike me as being sociopaths.





Sociopaths?  No, that "diagnosis" can only apply to mentally ill individuals.  I'm talking about a group.  A group with certain traditional ideas about the role of women which colors their view of abortion and which they think should be normative.


I know, it's supposed to be about the "murdered babies" and that's a good line of argument.  Very few people, even pro-choicers, have a positive view of abortion.  I don't approve of it myself, and I fall into the pro-choice camp.


However, when you look past that argument you also see opposition to birth control and comprehensive sex education, both of which are proven to reduce the need for abortion.  To me, that's a dead giveaway.




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4 years ago  ::  Feb 28, 2014 - 7:05AM #46
jlb32168
Posts: 15,431

Feb 26, 2014 -- 12:19PM, amcolph wrote:

However, when you look past that argument you also see opposition to birth control and comprehensive sex education, both of which are proven to reduce the need for abortion.  To me, that's a dead giveaway.


We'll simply have to agree to disagree because while I'm not PL myself, I find it hard to accept that PLers do what they do in bad faith and with the desire to manipulate and control women - especially since most of the people at those PL events (at least the ones that are brodcast on TV) appear to be women.


Victim of this, victim of that, your mama’s too thin and your daddy’s too fat, get over it! - the Eagles
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