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Switch to Forum Live View Perhaps a Direct Peek at Quantum Values
1 year ago  ::  Mar 04, 2013 - 4:21PM #1
d_p_m
Posts: 9,802
Researchers may have managed a way to skirt the limits of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, while measuring quantum values.

I'm not sure I completely grasp the nature of this 'trick' but perhaps someone will soon explain it in detail for those of us not practising quantum physics professionally.


www.sciencerecorder.com/news/scientists-...
"If you aren't confused by quantum physics, you haven't really understood it."

― Niels Bohr


“Extinguished theologians lie about the cradle of every science as the strangled snakes beside that of Hercules; and history records that whenever science and orthodoxy have been fairly opposed, the latter has been forced to retire from the lists, bleeding and crushed if not annihilated; scotched, if not slain.”

― Thomas Henry Huxley, Lay Sermons, Addresses, and Reviews


“The science, the art, the jurisprudence, the chief political and social theories, of the modern world have grown out of Greece and Rome—not by favour of, but in the teeth of, the fundamental teachings of early Christianity, to which science, art, and any serious occupation with the things of this world were alike despicable.”

― Thomas Henry Huxley, Agnosticism and Christianity and Other Essays
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 05, 2013 - 8:21PM #2
solfeggio
Posts: 9,085

OK.  This is intriguing.  I don't believe that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle can be violated.  But, in order to talk about Heisenberg, we have to know something about Max Planck, the man who invented quantum mechanics, and the Planck Constant. 


The definition of quantum is the minimum amount of any physical entity involved in an interaction.  And, this simply refers to the obvious fact that all objects are composed of an infinite number of particles.


Now, back to Heisenberg and the uncertainty principle.  Doesn't this principle state that there is always a limit on just how precisely a particle's position and momentum can be known? 


Well, there is very well known quantum experiment in which photons or electrons are sent through slits, one at a time and filmed.


When you look at the film, there will be an interference pattern, even though there was nothing for the photon or electron to interfere with.  However, if you set up a detector near the slits, there will be no interference pattern.


Take away the detector, and the interference comes back.


Obviously, observation does disturb systems.


I saw this demonstrated in a BBC documentary not long ago, and I was certainly impressed.


So, I do think the Heisenberg principle stands.


 


 


 


 

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 06, 2013 - 11:24AM #3
d_p_m
Posts: 9,802

Oh, the HUP is sound, but there may be 'tricks' to partly get around it.


IIRC, not only does the interference pattern go away if you detect the photon, it also does not form if you retroactively look to see if the particle passed through a given slit.


Of course, with quantum physics, one's brain gets trained to run in circles anyway, so I may have a few details muddled.


What interests me is the claim that some experiments have eliminated the 'hidden variables' model, so that things we don't know aren't just hidden, they are not entirely real, on a quantum level, until we learn them.

"If you aren't confused by quantum physics, you haven't really understood it."

― Niels Bohr


“Extinguished theologians lie about the cradle of every science as the strangled snakes beside that of Hercules; and history records that whenever science and orthodoxy have been fairly opposed, the latter has been forced to retire from the lists, bleeding and crushed if not annihilated; scotched, if not slain.”

― Thomas Henry Huxley, Lay Sermons, Addresses, and Reviews


“The science, the art, the jurisprudence, the chief political and social theories, of the modern world have grown out of Greece and Rome—not by favour of, but in the teeth of, the fundamental teachings of early Christianity, to which science, art, and any serious occupation with the things of this world were alike despicable.”

― Thomas Henry Huxley, Agnosticism and Christianity and Other Essays
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 06, 2013 - 12:55PM #4
TemplarS
Posts: 6,693

Yes, that is Bell's theorem and experiments related to it.


Put simply, it confirms that in the quantum world, particles really do not have definite properties (specifically, hidden ones) until measured.


The uncertainty principle doesn't really address that, but states that even once you begin to measure something, you cannot measure both "complementary properities" (of which there are a number of pairs) with an unlimited degree of accuracy; the more accurately you measure one property, the less accurately you will be able to define the other.


I haven't had time to run down this latest proposal on the uncertainty principle; the description given in the OP either isn't detailed enough for me to understand it- or beyond my understanding altogether.

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 13, 2013 - 7:57PM #5
rangerken
Posts: 16,406

Perhaps a way to explain this to those without a scientific background is to remind them that an electron (I assume everyone reading this knows what an electron is) cannot be 'seen', only proof of its passge can be 'seen'... as in it was just there...or here...and there it goes/went. I love this stuff and a lot of my own field of analytical inorganic just wallows in things like HUP and sub, sub atomic particles, and such. What's not to like when a field of study makes multi variant calculus really useful???... LOL. My son (elecrical engineer) and I love driving Mary Clare (wife and mom) and Eileen (daughter and sister) who are two brilliant women but with master degrees in NON mathematics based disciplines, to distrsction with math speak over dinner when we're all together. So far they have let us live... LOL squared.


In any case, having gotten the jocularity out of my system, I'll look into this. I think the Journal of the American Chemical Society had something about this some issues back. I'll check.


Ken...in phd mode

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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