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Switch to Forum Live View The Muslim World Needs To Change
2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 8:59PM #1
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

The Muslim world needs to grow up.


Here is an article from the New York times which is very, very appropriate...

a-21st-century-islam

Here's the key, brilliant, opening paragraph...

"The Muslim world cannot have it both ways. It cannot place Islam at the center of political life — and in extreme cases political violence — while at the same time declaring that the religion is off-limits to contestation and ridicule."

Further along are these two paagraphs (relating to the French cartoons...and GOOD for France!!!)


"Gérard Biard, the editor in chief of Charlie Hebdo, put the case well: “We’re a newspaper that respects French law. Now, if there’s a law that is different in Kabul or Riyadh, we’re not going to bother ourselves with respecting it.” Alluding to all the violence, Biard asked: “Are we supposed to not do that news?”


"He is right. There are too many hypocrisies in Islam — deploring attacks on it while often casting scorn on Judaism and Christianity, claiming the mantle of peace while inspiring violence — for it to expect to be spared the cartoonist’s arrows."


In other words, mine actually, it's time to grow up!!!!!


Then we have this article...from Bloomberg...


how-muslim-extremists-can-learn-from-larry-flynt

This one is all about free speech, something that many Muslim-majority nations want very much to eliminate.



Ken



Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:11AM
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:12PM #2
JCarlin
Posts: 6,346

It is probable that the groups needing a riot would have found a pretext somewhere, or perhaps as we have seen, just held the riot anyway.  No different from the hate groups in the US.  Need a headline? A riot is a good way to get one.  


 

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:12AM
J'Carlin
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:18PM #3
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:12PM, JCarlin wrote:


It is probable that the groups needing a riot would have found a pretext somewhere, or perhaps as we have seen, just held the riot anyway.  No different from the hate groups in the US.  Need a headline? A riot is a good way to get one.  


 




Precisely...mocking any religious figure of any religion should result in no more than a statement to the effect that it is rather rude...and nothing more...not ever! And that includes making fun of my own religion... it may annoy me... but I really don't think I'm going to throw a tantrum... much less try to burn somehing down.


Those doing the rioting and, more important, those clerics'encouaging it also need to be called out for what they are doing.


Ken

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:14AM
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:28PM #4
Ebon
Posts: 10,101

I agree with the larger point. For Islam to be seen as just another religion, it must condemn violence committed in it's name (and, in fairness, many Muslims do so). And if Islamic nations want to be dealt with on the same playing field as modern nations, they must adopt freedom of speech when it comes to religion.


I live in a nation which has an established relgion. The Church of England is the national church. In principle, there's nothing to stop any nation from having an established church of any religion they choose, including Islam. But when I criticise the C of E, all that happens is that I mildly annoy my grandmother. I'm a Luciferian Satanist. I worship the being that most of Christianity regards as the source of evil. Naturally, I disagree with that assessment but the point is that, even in a country with an established church, I am free to worship such a being. The state simply doesn't care who or how I worship. Unless I start sacrificing children or animals or something equally as extreme, the law has my back. In a modern nation, attacking someone over their faith is the act of a barbarian or, in any case, it should be seen as such.


Now, that's not to say that Muslims must quietly put up with criticisms of Islam, far from it. By all means, mount your own arguments, protest or boycott if you see fit. That's how public dialogue works in a modern nation. But being a modern nation means you accept certain ground rules and a couple of those are freedom of speech (subject to a very few limits for public safety) and freedom of religion. And freedom of religion isn't necessarily incompatible with an established church, Britain proves that.


All of that said, saying "claiming the mantle of peace while inspiring violence" is something which can be said about any major religion. Short of disingenuous sophistry like the No True Scotsman argument, every religion has inspired some nutters.

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:15AM
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:39PM #5
mountain_man
Posts: 38,733

Sep 22, 2012 -- 8:59PM, rangerken wrote:

The Muslim world needs to grow up.


The Muslim "world" can't grow up as long as religious fundamentalists are in charge. The same goes for any religion. The christian world cannot grow up - and it sure needs to - as long as they cater to the fundamentalists. The same for the once proud party of Lincoln.

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:16AM
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I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:41PM #6
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

Ebon, I'm not suggesting that any member of any religion accept criticism or ridicule wihout complaint. Complaining, arguing, returning the insult, and using every vocal and media outlet available to respond is absolutely FINE! Free speech must be just that for all. It is the violence and justiication for killing that I object to and am criticizing.


Ken

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:17AM
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:45PM #7
rangerken
Posts: 16,407

Sep 22, 2012 -- 9:39PM, mountain_man wrote:


Sep 22, 2012 -- 8:59PM, rangerken wrote:

The Muslim world needs to grow up. 


The Muslim "world" can't grow up as long as religious fundamentalists are in charge. The same goes for any religion. The christian world cannot grow up - and it sure needs to - as long as they cater to the fundamentalists. The same for the once proud party of Lincoln.




Fundamentalists of any and all religions should be figures of fun and always subject to ridicule...that includes my own faith of course. BUT, there's only one religion that is extoling and encouraging, and using its beliefs to justify murder and mayhem...and that happens to be Islam not the local anti everything evangelical bible thumping conglomeration.


Ken

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Sep 23, 2012 - 10:18AM
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 9:54PM #8
Svetlana
Posts: 11,278

The complaint against their actions should include the observation of what an appalling insult these violent ones are themselves to their prophet and their religion.  Rub in their faces how awful they, themselves, make Muhammad and Islam look, and repeat it until they finally get it.  Pointedly offer sympathy for this to those Muslims who abhor this violence.

"No matter how big and bad you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone, you answer it."  ~ (common sense)

"Never place a period where God has placed a comma."  ~ Gracie Allen

"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I wonder sometimes if we ever give God a headache." ~ Dontay Hall, age 8
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 10:30PM #9
farragut
Posts: 3,937

"The complaint against their actions should include the observation of what an appalling insult these violent ones are themselves to their prophet and their religion'


Would that were true. The more I read their book, the more I find that they are living it.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 22, 2012 - 10:41PM #10
teilhard
Posts: 49,912

I honestly don't believe that it is ONLY "those Muslims" who have an unfortunate Immaturity Problem ...

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