Aug 10, 2012 -- 3:34PM, Erey wrote:

 

Boring, you should be grateful because I am pretty sure I am the only person who actually responded to your posts.  Think about that while you are busy making what you consider brilliant points. 

Using the term "responded" loosely, you do have a point... Not too many takers. Perhaps because I am new, not fanatic nor insulting enough?

On the other hand, my minor contributions to this mess, ignored or not, brilliant or not, are based in simple logic, with simple and limited implications. And no, nobody has responded to any of it, not even you. Except a very few times where there was either simple agreement or a distortion of what I wrote to launch into someone else's agenda, there has been no direct reference, support or contradiction, of anything I've put up here.

However, I do find this entire thread quite entertaining and intriguing -even you, Erey. I usually don't have much interest in "places" or processes like this, but every once in a while it is a great distraction from routine.

I do appreciate you taking the time to at least hit the quote button, spew a couple of random insults, then hit the submit post button... But if you are hoping for much reaction, well, I don't have nearly enough vested in either my internet persona or this discussion to care -again, just a curiosity to break my schedule up. Nothing on this board is going to have measurable, far-reaching consequences -just another imperceptible ripple in the interference pattern that is the growth and death of human ideas and ideals.

Having read all these posts (starting to fall behind a bit), it isn't lost on me, however, that my few posts are mirrored pages later -not exact, to be sure, but there nonetheless. Either I'm ahead of the curve and genuinely being ignored on the whole, or I have had some small effect on this thread, as you have had some small effect on this thread. Personally, I do not care either way, as my main concern is for my own thoughts and considerations, the presentation of logic and applicable metaphor, and any genuine facts which may be gleaned... Baseless opinions, insults, idiocy, and any of the like are all completely useless to me, including those offered directly to me, except for morbid entertainment.

mindis1, though taking a much more extreme position in the subject (or argument, if you will) than I would, at least had the idea straight, even if he is just a little too willowy for his own good (though, most good debaters are, at least in academic settings). Assertions need to be backed up by valid argument, which need to be supported by agreeable presuppositions, assumptions, and/or facts. The latter may be stated formally or tacitly understood (which is more often the case when utilizing metaphor and analogy), but anything which doesn't follow this form is either pure opinion (no matter how it is stated) or simple pathos (appeal to emotion). Not that there is anything wrong with pathos after logos has brought a conclusion about (or the exceedingly rare cases where emotion helps you see an issue more clearly), but it shouldn't be the basis of argument. Also, appeal to ethos (authority) should only be in the most trusted authority in the matter and only when there is no other option. In issues like these, for many, the balancing act between the various forms of argument (both valid and invalid) can be difficult. Also, ad hominem and straw man are not valid forms of argument, if you didn't know, they are called fallacies -they have absolutely no bearing on the conversation except to ensnare those who don't know better.

And if I had to make a basic presupposition, it would have nothing really to do with the argument at hand: that circumcision actually draws on too many and too varied other, more basic, principles and considerations to coherently discuss with the level of veracity being attempted.

No,not Browbeaten.  Eikidos, your posts are way too long and wordy - I can't make it very far through your posts.  Just a suggestion.

Aug 11, 2012 -- 7:21PM, Erey wrote:

That is not what I read and from very reliable sources.  

>>>They are not reliable sources.  If you knew about Native American cultures you wouldn't think many indigenous practiced circumcision.

I don't claim to be an expert on indigenous tribes,

>>> :) . 

but I do read material WRITTEN BY experts.

>>>Cite your reference material so that it can be scrutinized if you are sure of your references.

And seeing as how there are so many different indigenous cultures no body with any education would ever say "oh the indigenous Americans never did that". 

>>>I gave you a reliable source (Geographical Map).

Because there were so many different practises amoung them that most likely some group indeed did do that. 

>>>Again, talking through your hat.  What you've written about "many" [you did say "many"] Native Americans practicing circumcision, is your empiricist colonial idea about Indians.  You think you know something by doing a quick check on the internet.  Nooooo.   

Oh and FYI - Mexico is in North America which makes Aztecs and Mayans North American. 

>>>Technically they are Central (Meso) American.

 

Aug 11, 2012 -- 7:17PM, Erey wrote:

No,not Browbeaten.  Eikidos, your posts are way too long and wordy - I can't make it very far through your posts.  Just a suggestion.

Heh, yeah, I have a problem with that. Either I bite off more than I can chew, or I get too caught up in the details. When I do both, it gets really bad. In normal "irl" communication, I rely on a lot of things which don't translate well to the written word, compressing concepts with body language, tone, etc., and using very recursive pathing through my topic and related subjects, merging and twisting them back at multiple points... It is hard for me to find dividing lines between one concept and another. Perhaps just a curse of right-brain thinking :/

However, while I wouldn't call myself brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, if I didn't think what I had to say wasn't at least worth considering, I wouldn't spend the effort organizing, shoe-horning into written word, and typing it out. Course, I guess that is more or less anyone who has something to say... And also, it helps me organize my thoughts through language... And I think I'm coming to see that newborns aren't treated carefully enough at all (like you said, right?), even aside from circumcision (though, the way it is done, I think I would now include that as well)... Certainly, some things could be put off till a bit later, done with a bit more patience, and perhaps a bit more compassion. The idea that it is best to just get it all over with at the same time doesn't seem to add up with research data -stress hormones are like poison, the body can metabolize up to a certain, variable amount with no effects, but surpass that amount, and irreparable harm can result. Why even take the chances with our children? To me, it seems like you and I actually line up closely in how we see things.

Thank you for the suggestion about length, and believe it or not, I do try. (see me trying to choke off this last post? ha!)

Aug 11, 2012 -- 10:07PM, Ekdikos wrote:

Aug 11, 2012 -- 7:17PM, Erey wrote:

No,not Browbeaten.  Eikidos, your posts are way too long and wordy - I can't make it very far through your posts.  Just a suggestion.

Heh, yeah, I have a problem with that. Either I bite off more than I can chew, or I get too caught up in the details. When I do both, it gets really bad. In normal "irl" communication, I rely on a lot of things which don't translate well to the written word, compressing concepts with body language, tone, etc., and using very recursive pathing through my topic and related subjects, merging and twisting them back at multiple points... It is hard for me to find dividing lines between one concept and another. Perhaps just a curse of right-brain thinking :/

However, while I wouldn't call myself brilliant by any stretch of the imagination, if I didn't think what I had to say wasn't at least worth considering, I wouldn't spend the effort organizing, shoe-horning into written word, and typing it out. Course, I guess that is more or less anyone who has something to say... And also, it helps me organize my thoughts through language... And I think I'm coming to see that newborns aren't treated carefully enough at all (like you said, right?), even aside from circumcision (though, the way it is done, I think I would now include that as well)... Certainly, some things could be put off till a bit later, done with a bit more patience, and perhaps a bit more compassion. The idea that it is best to just get it all over with at the same time doesn't seem to add up with research data -stress hormones are like poison, the body can metabolize up to a certain, variable amount with no effects, but surpass that amount, and irreparable harm can result. Why even take the chances with our children? To me, it seems like you and I actually line up closely in how we see things.

Thank you for the suggestion about length, and believe it or not, I do try. (see me trying to choke off this last post? ha!)

no, i don't think circumcision is best put off untill latter.  That does not make any sense to me.