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2 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2012 - 1:26PM #61
exile3
Posts: 23

Hi H.


I created my profile many years ago...


I think of myself as an exile- along with most of the rest of the human race- from peace. Peace in its most inclusive sense, within the self and amongst . I think perhaps that is our natural state, so we are exiled from ourselves.


No, I have not considered what significance the name would have to jewish people on this board. I would like to know.


exile

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2012 - 2:51PM #62
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,654

Jul 18, 2012 -- 1:26PM, exile3 wrote:


Hi H.


I created my profile many years ago...


I think of myself as an exile- along with most of the rest of the human race- from peace. Peace in its most inclusive sense, within the self and amongst . I think perhaps that is our natural state, so we are exiled from ourselves.


No, I have not considered what significance the name would have to jewish people on this board. I would like to know.


exile




Exile


If you feel exiled from peace it is because you have exiled yourself and have joined with those who have no interest in peace.


As you may know there have been 2 Diasporas of the Jewish people from Israel, our homeland. Seeing the name exile3 attached to a poster whose opinions appear to be anti-Israel and pro-Arab/Palestinian (who advocate the death or dislocation of the Jewish population of Israel - thus a third exile) is rather disconcerting. The elimination of the State of Israel and the death or dislocation of the Jewish population of Israel is still the official policy of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.... and most of the Arab countries surrounding Israel. (It is also the policy advocated by a few people on this forum) From my point of view your choice of moniker is unfortunate at best and descriptive at worst. 



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2 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2012 - 3:02PM #63
exile3
Posts: 23

Jul 18, 2012 -- 8:31AM, exile3 wrote:

Jul 18, 2012 -- 1:49AM, habesor wrote:

Hi Marie,


By the way, do you prefer to be called Marie or Exile3? About Jerusalem, you wrote:


"As for Jerusalem, perhaps I am biased but I do not trust her to Israel. I am Christian (not your typical one) and I would not want the Church to have control over the city either." 


I would just like to point out that Israel has been in control of Jerusalem for the past 45 years and that city has never known such a high degree of civil and religious freedom as it has during that time. Certainly under the previous Arab rule the situation was quite the reverse. The situation under Israeli rule, though not perfect, has also been far superior to that of British or Ottoman rule. So, unless you have some specifics about why you think Israel cannot properly be the sovereign power in Jerusalem, your feelings not withstanding, you really have no argument of substance in opposition to Israeli rule. I would also add that sovereign control over the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem would be in the hands of Muslim states, both Arab and non-Arab. 


You also wrote:


"Who would have jursidiction between  someone whose citizenship is Israel and the other Palestinian?"


That would depend on where they live. Dual Israel-Palestinians who live in the Palestinian state would be under Palestinian jurisdiction and dual Israeli-Palestinians living in Israel would be under Israeli jurisdiction. 


"Thousands of Palestinians, who have lost their land and thus their livlihood work in the settlements."


And thousands of Palestinians who have not lost their land also work in the settlements; over 20,000 Palestinians also work in Israel.


"They have no choice, and they have no rights once they enter the settlement. Little pay, no benefits, etc... Would there not need to be a governing body that sets forth workers rights, adjudicates alercations, etc... "


Having some first hand knowledge about the situation in Gaza before the Israeli withdrawal and a great deal of first hand knowledge about Palestinians and foreign workers in Israel, I would suggest that your description of the situation is not quite accurate. Palestinians, like all other folks, tend for the most part to work where the working conditions are better. Between 40,000 to 50,000 Gazans used to commute to Israel everyday to jobs that paid better than anything in Gaza. A similar but larger number used to commute from the West Bank. This began to change during the first intifada and came to a screeching halt in the second. Prior to that, Fatah and other Palestinian "resistance" groups would periodically attack Palestinian workers going to and from their jobs in Israel, trying to discourage this activity.


In Israel, the situation after 1967 was quite new and there were no laws governing the employment of Palestinians. This situation, after a time, was rectified, and volunteer organizations were established or expanded to make sure that Palestinian workers received their rights according to the law; that is the same rights that Israeli workers had. 


As a consequence of the growing absence of Palestinian workers due to the Intifadas and closures as a consequence of terrorism, foreign workers began to enter the labor force, replacing the Palestinians. Once again, it took a bit of time but equal rights were extended to cover foreign workers as well. This includes things like equal pay, health insurance and in addition, intervisas for home leave. There's a lot more that I won't go into now, unless you want to know about it.


The upshot of all of this is that Palestinian workers have more legal protection as workers in Israel and in the settlements, than they do as workers in the PA.


Marie, I won't even begin to compare the situation of Palestinian workers (or foreign workers) in Israel and in the settlements with those in other Arab countries but I would say that Israel at its worst was a workers paradise compared to the PA and most of the other Arab countries.


One final point, the situation of workers under my peace plan will be governed by the laws in place where they work. Workers in the Palestinian state will be governed by Palestinian laws and workers in the Israeli state will be governed by Israeli laws.  


Habesor






Hi H


Palestinians do not enjoy the worker rights as do Israelis. They make less money, they don't have workers compensation or health insurance. They are not given fair and equal protection in Israeli courts.


A lot of Palestinians have lost their livlihood due to the confiscation of their land. Their economy is strangled by the occupation. They have to work. Do you know that thousands of workers line up, starting at 3 or 4am, to get through the checkpoints and get to their jobs in Israel by 8am? They are treated little better than cattle through the checkpoints.


Despite the above, a permit to work in Israel is food on the table;it is greatly valued. And some Palstinians do well and enjoy working in Israel.


But it is hardly a just or equitable situation.





Another reason why I don't trust Israel with the sacred sites of Jerusalem... today in the news" Israel digs up a Palestinian graveyard.


palestinechronicle.com/view_article_deta...



This happened last year at another cemetary; I was going to mention this in my original post about Israel caring for Muslim sacred sites but I didn't have the reference handy. Then I got this article in my mail this morning.


I think if a people will knowingly desecrate graveyards, their trustworthines is serioudly called  into question.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2012 - 3:08PM #64
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,654

Exile


Without addressing the veracity of the reports you cited. You do know that the Jordanians removed hundreds of grave from Mt. Olive and used the grave stones for paving stones and to build urinals, destroyed Jewish Schools, Synagogues, religious sites and destroyed and built over cemeteries. Don't you? 


Apparently your name is more apt than one might have hoped.


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 18, 2012 - 5:41PM #65
LeahOne
Posts: 16,256

Jul 18, 2012 -- 3:02PM, exile3 wrote:


I think if a people will knowingly desecrate graveyards, their trustworthines is serioudly called  into question.



Indeed, the irony here is tremendous. 


208.84.118.121/pf_1948to1967_holysites.p...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem


www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/fea...


 


BTW, Marie - I'm still waiting for your sources for the allegations that the Israelis have tried to 'undermine' the Temple Mount with their excavations. 

Moderated by Merope on Jul 21, 2012 - 08:15PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2012 - 8:21PM #66
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,312

Jul 18, 2012 -- 3:02PM, exile3 wrote:

I think if a people will knowingly desecrate graveyards, their trustworthines is serioudly called  into question.



'God is God of the living not the dead"


The houses where people live are more important to preserve than the graves of the dead.


The dead are beyond the pain, while the living ones suffer.


Edit: inserted quote

Moderated by Stardove on Jul 22, 2012 - 03:35PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2012 - 11:42PM #67
habesor
Posts: 5,648

Dos,


What is your point?


Are you agreeing with Exile3 or disagreeing?


Please explain your remarks in the previous message.


Habesor

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2012 - 3:15AM #68
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,312

Jul 20, 2012 -- 11:42PM, habesor wrote:


Dos,


What is your point?


Are you agreeing with Exile3 or disagreeing?


Please explain your remarks in the previous message.


Habesor




Habesor, the first line in my post is a quote from another post.


It is to 'that' that I am responding.


It can't be any clearer.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2012 - 6:00AM #69
habesor
Posts: 5,648

So, Dos,


If I understand you correctly, you are disagreeing with Exile3. Is that correct?


Habesor

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2012 - 6:50AM #70
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,312

Jul 21, 2012 -- 6:00AM, habesor wrote:


So, Dos,


If I understand you correctly, you are disagreeing with Exile3. Is that correct?


Habesor



Habersor are you a Politician or something?


Going round and round.. Exile said many things.


I am saying what I am saying in my post. I did not quote Exile,


I quoted somebody else which is irrelevant.


I discuss issues not people.

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