Hi H.

I created my profile many years ago...

I think of myself as an exile- along with most of the rest of the human race- from peace. Peace in its most inclusive sense, within the self and amongst . I think perhaps that is our natural state, so we are exiled from ourselves.

No, I have not considered what significance the name would have to jewish people on this board. I would like to know.

exile

Jul 18, 2012 -- 8:31AM, exile3 wrote:

Jul 18, 2012 -- 1:49AM, habesor wrote:

Hi Marie,

By the way, do you prefer to be called Marie or Exile3? About Jerusalem, you wrote:

"As for Jerusalem, perhaps I am biased but I do not trust her to Israel. I am Christian (not your typical one) and I would not want the Church to have control over the city either." 

I would just like to point out that Israel has been in control of Jerusalem for the past 45 years and that city has never known such a high degree of civil and religious freedom as it has during that time. Certainly under the previous Arab rule the situation was quite the reverse. The situation under Israeli rule, though not perfect, has also been far superior to that of British or Ottoman rule. So, unless you have some specifics about why you think Israel cannot properly be the sovereign power in Jerusalem, your feelings not withstanding, you really have no argument of substance in opposition to Israeli rule. I would also add that sovereign control over the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem would be in the hands of Muslim states, both Arab and non-Arab. 

You also wrote:

"Who would have jursidiction between  someone whose citizenship is Israel and the other Palestinian?"

That would depend on where they live. Dual Israel-Palestinians who live in the Palestinian state would be under Palestinian jurisdiction and dual Israeli-Palestinians living in Israel would be under Israeli jurisdiction. 

"Thousands of Palestinians, who have lost their land and thus their livlihood work in the settlements."

And thousands of Palestinians who have not lost their land also work in the settlements; over 20,000 Palestinians also work in Israel.

"They have no choice, and they have no rights once they enter the settlement. Little pay, no benefits, etc... Would there not need to be a governing body that sets forth workers rights, adjudicates alercations, etc... "

Having some first hand knowledge about the situation in Gaza before the Israeli withdrawal and a great deal of first hand knowledge about Palestinians and foreign workers in Israel, I would suggest that your description of the situation is not quite accurate. Palestinians, like all other folks, tend for the most part to work where the working conditions are better. Between 40,000 to 50,000 Gazans used to commute to Israel everyday to jobs that paid better than anything in Gaza. A similar but larger number used to commute from the West Bank. This began to change during the first intifada and came to a screeching halt in the second. Prior to that, Fatah and other Palestinian "resistance" groups would periodically attack Palestinian workers going to and from their jobs in Israel, trying to discourage this activity.

In Israel, the situation after 1967 was quite new and there were no laws governing the employment of Palestinians. This situation, after a time, was rectified, and volunteer organizations were established or expanded to make sure that Palestinian workers received their rights according to the law; that is the same rights that Israeli workers had. 

As a consequence of the growing absence of Palestinian workers due to the Intifadas and closures as a consequence of terrorism, foreign workers began to enter the labor force, replacing the Palestinians. Once again, it took a bit of time but equal rights were extended to cover foreign workers as well. This includes things like equal pay, health insurance and in addition, intervisas for home leave. There's a lot more that I won't go into now, unless you want to know about it.

The upshot of all of this is that Palestinian workers have more legal protection as workers in Israel and in the settlements, than they do as workers in the PA.

Marie, I won't even begin to compare the situation of Palestinian workers (or foreign workers) in Israel and in the settlements with those in other Arab countries but I would say that Israel at its worst was a workers paradise compared to the PA and most of the other Arab countries.

One final point, the situation of workers under my peace plan will be governed by the laws in place where they work. Workers in the Palestinian state will be governed by Palestinian laws and workers in the Israeli state will be governed by Israeli laws.  

Habesor

Hi H

Palestinians do not enjoy the worker rights as do Israelis. They make less money, they don't have workers compensation or health insurance. They are not given fair and equal protection in Israeli courts.

A lot of Palestinians have lost their livlihood due to the confiscation of their land. Their economy is strangled by the occupation. They have to work. Do you know that thousands of workers line up, starting at 3 or 4am, to get through the checkpoints and get to their jobs in Israel by 8am? They are treated little better than cattle through the checkpoints.

Despite the above, a permit to work in Israel is food on the table;it is greatly valued. And some Palstinians do well and enjoy working in Israel.

But it is hardly a just or equitable situation.

Another reason why I don't trust Israel with the sacred sites of Jerusalem... today in the news" Israel digs up a Palestinian graveyard.

palestinechronicle.com/view_article_deta...

This happened last year at another cemetary; I was going to mention this in my original post about Israel caring for Muslim sacred sites but I didn't have the reference handy. Then I got this article in my mail this morning.

I think if a people will knowingly desecrate graveyards, their trustworthines is serioudly called  into question.

Jul 18, 2012 -- 3:02PM, exile3 wrote:

I think if a people will knowingly desecrate graveyards, their trustworthines is serioudly called  into question.

Indeed, the irony here is tremendous. 

208.84.118.121/pf_1948to1967_holysites.p...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem

www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/fea...

BTW, Marie - I'm still waiting for your sources for the allegations that the Israelis have tried to 'undermine' the Temple Mount with their excavations. 

Dos,

What is your point?

Are you agreeing with Exile3 or disagreeing?

Please explain your remarks in the previous message.

Habesor

So, Dos,

If I understand you correctly, you are disagreeing with Exile3. Is that correct?

Habesor