Hello H

you asked "

As for your comments about settlements, they are very imprecise. Could you tell us what percentage of the land beyond the Green line is actually taken up by existing settlements?

That depends on who you ask... the figures vary between sources, and looking at a map more helpful.

This is from B'tselem: "From 1967 to mid-2010, Israel established 121 settlements in the West Bank that were recognized by the Interior Ministry as “communities.” In addition, some 100 outposts (settlements built without official authorization but with support and assistance of government ministries). Furthermore, twelve neighborhoods that were established on land annexed by Israel in 1967 and made part of Jerusalem are deemed settlements under international law. The government has also funded and assisted in the establishment of a few settler enclaves in the heart of Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, including in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City, Silwan, Sheikh Jarrach, Mount of Olives, Ras al-‘Amud, Abu Dis, and Jabal al-Mukabber. Sixteen settlements that had been established in the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the northern West Bank were dismantled in 2005 in the course of implementing the disengagement plan."  source: www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

btselem has some helpful maps to put it in perspective, as does American for Peace Now at peacenow.org/map.php

It is my understanding that land where settlers actually live is somewhere between 1% and 9%. However, the actual land that is controlled by the settlements is about 42%... this includes "buffer zones" , military roads and military closed zones around settlements, and by pass roads. If all military were withdrawn and all its space, ( and not to be replaced with private security!) and Barqan Industrial settlement closed down and cleaned up (you can ask me about that if you aren't aware) all military training camps shut down and land returned (much of the Jordon Valley) ... 

I repeat too that the subsidies that settlers in the west bank receive be stopped and incentives to resettle out of contested areas (I think a lot of settlers would as soon live in 49 area, especially once militarization is removed.) There is a lot of paranoid going on in the settlements. I have been in a settlement and around many. They live in self made prisons... military, raze wire fences and surveillance, flood lights on all night around the perimeter of the settlements, check points. And many (most probably) are armed. A lot of them carry their machine guns around with them... even with their children to the store. It is crazy.  sorry... have gone into "thinking back" mode...

Who would have jursidiction between  someone whose citizenship is Israel and the other Palestinian? Thousands of Palestinians, who have lost their land and thus their livlihood work in the settlements. They have no choice, and they have no rights once they enter the settlement. Little pay, no benefits, etc... Would there not need to be a governing body that sets forth workers rights, adjudicates alercations, etc... 

As for Jerusalem, perhaps I am biased but I do not trust her to Israel. I am Christian (not your typical one) and I would not want the Church to have control over the city either. 

So, Marie - You wanted to discuss people's 'passion' for the area.  What's yours, how did you get involved ?

Oh, and what are you considering 'a typical Christian'?  There are many denominations of Christianity......

Hello H.

I hope I don't seem argumentative. I am thinking deeply about this... so of course many questions arise and I am addressing those questions with you.

What about the military bases/training camps? Do they go? As well as the security perimeters around the settlements. Do they go. Because this is a big chunk of land, and since much of it is related to the settlements, it needs to be considered.

I am mindful that for me this is a discussion, which will not change realities on the ground and I am now at home in the (evil empire) United States, and you are on there, so I do respect your thoughts and am glad you take the time to share them

Jul 12, 2012 -- 11:41PM, habesor wrote:

Marie,

When Israel withdrew from Gaza we pulled out all of the settlements, settlers, military bases and even exhumed the bodies of our dead and reburied them in Israel. There is no reason why the same could not be done on the West Bank for those Jews living in Palestinian designated areas who do not want to continue living there under Palestinian rule; which would be their option. As for the settlements and bases that would become part of Israel, all of their boundaries would be an Israeli domestic issue, just as the boundaries of those Palestinian communities living in territory that was formerly on the Israeli side of the green line would be a domestic Palestinian issue.

Marie, you keep coming back for explanations on these points and yet none of it is very complicated. Jewish settlers living on land that will be annexed to the State of Israel will be Israeli citizens. Palestinians living on land that will be annexed to the Palestinian State will be Palestinian citizens. Jews living in the Palestinian state will be offered dual citizenship but will be subject to the laws and authority of that state. Arabs living in the State of Israel will be offered dual citizenship but will be subject to the laws and authority of the Israeli State.

All of the arrangements will be based on reciprocity and self-determination. Marie I will ask two questions which I asked in previous messages and which you refrained from answering. Do you favor or oppose the application of the principles of reciprocity and self-determination in a solution to this conflict. Second, in response to your question about my reasons for concern about this conflict, which I answered, you have refrained from answering the same question. How and more importantly why did you, an American living thousands of kilometers away, get involved in our little dispute here?

I look forward to your response.

Habesor 

Do you favor or oppose the application of the principles of reciprocity and self-determination in a solution to this conflict.

I would favor this, of course.  Given the realities on the ground, my questions seem practical.

As for my interest... I wanted to see where so much of my tax money was going. We Americans are paying a hefty amount of money to your "little dispute!" Now that is something I cannot wrap my mind around. I understand 2 groups of people in conflict over land, resources, etc... but I cannot understand the US paying for the occupation and seeing that every UN resolution that might sully Israel gets vetoed.

Some people call Israel "America's land based air craft carrier".

Jul 12, 2012 -- 8:29AM, exile3 wrote:

Hello H

you asked "

As for your comments about settlements, they are very imprecise. Could you tell us what percentage of the land beyond the Green line is actually taken up by existing settlements?

That depends on who you ask... the figures vary between sources, and looking at a map more helpful.

This is from B'tselem: "From 1967 to mid-2010, Israel established 121 settlements in the West Bank that were recognized by the Interior Ministry as “communities.” In addition, some 100 outposts (settlements built without official authorization but with support and assistance of government ministries). Furthermore, twelve neighborhoods that were established on land annexed by Israel in 1967 and made part of Jerusalem are deemed settlements under international law. The government has also funded and assisted in the establishment of a few settler enclaves in the heart of Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, including in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City, Silwan, Sheikh Jarrach, Mount of Olives, Ras al-‘Amud, Abu Dis, and Jabal al-Mukabber. Sixteen settlements that had been established in the Gaza Strip and four settlements in the northern West Bank were dismantled in 2005 in the course of implementing the disengagement plan."  source: www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

btselem has some helpful maps to put it in perspective, as does American for Peace Now at peacenow.org/map.php

It is my understanding that land where settlers actually live is somewhere between 1% and 9%. However, the actual land that is controlled by the settlements is about 42%... this includes "buffer zones" , military roads and military closed zones around settlements, and by pass roads. If all military were withdrawn and all its space, ( and not to be replaced with private security!) and Barqan Industrial settlement closed down and cleaned up (you can ask me about that if you aren't aware) all military training camps shut down and land returned (much of the Jordon Valley) ... 

I repeat too that the subsidies that settlers in the west bank receive be stopped and incentives to resettle out of contested areas (I think a lot of settlers would as soon live in 49 area, especially once militarization is removed.) There is a lot of paranoid going on in the settlements. I have been in a settlement and around many. They live in self made prisons... military, raze wire fences and surveillance, flood lights on all night around the perimeter of the settlements, check points. And many (most probably) are armed. A lot of them carry their machine guns around with them... even with their children to the store. It is crazy.  sorry... have gone into "thinking back" mode...

Who would have jursidiction between  someone whose citizenship is Israel and the other Palestinian? Thousands of Palestinians, who have lost their land and thus their livlihood work in the settlements. They have no choice, and they have no rights once they enter the settlement. Little pay, no benefits, etc... Would there not need to be a governing body that sets forth workers rights, adjudicates alercations, etc... 

As for Jerusalem, perhaps I am biased but I do not trust her to Israel. I am Christian (not your typical one) and I would not want the Church to have control over the city either. 

>>>>>>>>. Thanks for sharing 1st hand experiences with us. There are so much victim blaming goes on here, we needed something from a 3rd perspective (Not party to this problem).

I met others who visited Palestine/Israel and came back with similar to what you shared here.

As an outsiders if you find Israel not trust worthy, it is probably more difficult for average Palestinians to trust Israel (Based on their action for last 60+ years).

Many Israelis have a twisted view of removing everything Palestinian from historical Palestine. Just because history book and Bible told them TWO THOUSAND years ago Jews used to owned most of it. The problem is they are not willing to settle for any boundary and always double talking to expand their land grab movements.

Since foundation of Israel they worked hard to make Palestinians uncomfortable in their own homeland.

That is why they have a trust deficit with Israel and Palestine.

I hope Israeli leaders give up their failed policy and settle for a solution both parties can agree on. This is not "Normal" living for either parties.

Shalom!