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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 11:31AM #31
mountain_man
Posts: 39,312

Jun 24, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Fodaoson wrote:

.... Perhaps the denial of same sex marriages, the repression of same sex relations  and the rejection of gay/lesbian persons contribute to the social ills  rather than  th e accceptance of  same sex  relationship as natural.


I think you hit the nail on the head.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 11:35AM #32
mountain_man
Posts: 39,312

Jun 25, 2012 -- 10:47AM, Do_unto_others wrote:

That's the problem with sarcasm. Even YOU had to tell us you weren't being sarcastic. It is impossible to tell purely by the written word. If he had "explained it" within the post (as YOU did) it might have been clear.


Sarcasm doesn't come across very well in this medium. Being upset at not catching on sooner doesn't help the conversation any. I did not get his sarcasm until he explained it. I moved on. If I had made a comment like that I would assume that everyone would know I was being sarcastic since I have been consistent in my complete support for differently sexed/gendered individuals to have the same rights and respect as everyone else.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 1:50PM #33
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 24, 2012 -- 1:39PM, Ebon wrote:


Jun 24, 2012 -- 1:12PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Many gay men are in hetero relationships, marriages -- for various reasons. Some are closeted and ashamed of their homosexuality, and don't even tell their wives.


 Some perhaps don't want to follow through on their homosexual attractions, and would rather have a go at a straight marriage, and might have even been honest from the get-go with the woman they're with about their sexuality.


Some of those men (usually the closeted ones) might have affairs with other men, but would never, ever molest a boy.



Well, obviously.


IMO, boy molesters -- regardless of having a "relationship," are probably the gay version of adult -- and often married -- men who stalk and try to have sex with teen and pre-teen girls.



It really has nothing to do with gay or straight although the sexuality-as-power-games are much the same.


He pointed out, it's a popular conception -- even in media reports -- that "child molestor" and "pedophile" are interchangable terms. It was his contention that they are not interchangable terms.


A molester acts out of sheer power -- probably because he himself was abused as a child -- so now craves to be the one in power, and not the helpless victim. It really has nothing to do with sexual attraction, per se.


A true pedophile has an actual, genuine sexual attraction to children, he said.



Interesting distinction, to some extent that mirrors the division between situational and preferential offenders. A preferential has an actual sexual attraction to children (usually exclusively to children) whereas a situational offender has an attraction to both adults and children. Now, it's entirely possible that some of those are renacting previously internalised power roles (and some aren't, human psychology is complicated) but we also have to remember that the majority of victims don't become offenders. Most victims, while often horribly messed up by the experience, do not go on to victimise others.




Good points, Ebon.


First, that molestation/rape/sexual abuse -- regardless of whether the victim is a child or adult -- seems to have to do more with power than sexuality. 


Secondly, that many victims do not go on to become offenders. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 2:06PM #34
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 24, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Fodaoson wrote:


Several posters continually condemn same-sex marriage, homosexual relationships  and gay/lebaian activity of any kind as doing great harm to society, to heterosexual marriage and should be outlawed, sanctioned and   not be given any legal or social standing.   Some will imply that the high divorce rate, child abuse, juvenile crime and other social ills are a result of homosexuality’s presence in movies , TV and in public life. 


Homosexual/ lesbianism are natural orientations; they seem to historically have occurred at about the same rate in all societies.   They have also been historically repressed.   Maybe the repression rather than acceptance creates the social ills we see.  If a man could have an open acceptable relationship with another man, find gratification and happiness then their lives would be “normal”. When they are repressed, they feel rejected, marginalize and  try to find acceptance in some way .A  priest they can live a celibate accepted  life style, in social programs and work they can do good to  counter their “bad” tendencies, orientation and feelings.  A major behavior  problem is th at the Male sex drive is just little weaker than the will to survive.  Men are driven to suppress their homosexuality and become priests, minister’s social workers, youth workers   in attempts to suppress their natural feelings.


 Perhaps the denial of same sex marriages, the repression of same sex relations  and the rejection of gay/lesbian persons contribute to the social ills  rather than  th e accceptance of  same sex  relationship as natural.              




A few points of objection here.


First, I don't know where you get the "several posters" notion. Some posters, including me, have raised objections to politically correct, gay-activist narrative regarding homosexuality/gay marriage. But I don't think anybody has has suggested it be banned, or people forbidden by law from living as they see fit. 


Secondly, the "If society would just accept us, we wouldn't do bad things" plea seems weak to me. Grown-up adults should be able to own their decisons regarding sexuality, and not be hung up on what others think.


But even beyond that, I think the implication that social stigma might cause gay men to enter vocations, such as the clergy, and end up molesting boys to be, ironically, incredibly degrading to gay men. 


IMO, child abusers in the Catholic Church and elsewhere are, well, child abusers, and would be, regardless of gay rights or societal acceptance of homosexuality.


Yes, Catholic policy against clergy marrying or otherwise having legitimate sexual outlets is, IMO, not only theologically baseless, but also repressive.


However, gay Catholic priests who might be overwhelmed by said repression might have affairs with other men, just as straight priests who just can't take it might end up carrying on with women.


That has nothing, nada, zip to do with child abuse and molestaion. Totally different class of people, totally different issue. 


I'm not sure what the effects of acceptance of homosexuality will be. That might be impossible to quantify.


On one hand, the view of those with homosexual attractions as monsters, and a legitimate target for hate, even violence, can't be done away with quickly enough, IMO. 


On the other hand, morality is vital to society, and sexual morality particularly so. Enablement/encouragement of homosexuality can be seen as indicative of lax morality and permissiveness. Not to mention, the notion that homosexuality is just a benign variation along an arbitrary, relative spectrum of "normal" is dubious. 


In other words, this is a complicated issue. But, let's start by acknowleging, again, that child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality -- homo, hetero or bi. 





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 6:51PM #35
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,155

Mtm

“In other words, this is a complicated issue. But, let's start by acknowleging, again, that child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality -- homo, hetero or bi.

Mtm

“In other words, this is a complicated issue. But, let's start by acknowleging, again, that child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality -- homo, hetero or bi.

Yes it is complicated issue( a point of agreement. The following is not an argument but thoughts based on some reading and some perusing of related research. I conditionally agree with “child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality “ A factor may be in the psychological-sexual development or non- development. The abuser may retain an early puberty peer-sexual mentality. It may be result of abuse at that stage of development or other trauma. It maybe because the abuser has never progressed fully into adult sexual development I have worked (counseling) with rape victims, abuse victims/families, within rapist (incarcerated) and abusers( alleged& incarcerated). My first reaction to the rapist/ abusers was to chain them to a ton of concrete, castrate them with a K-bar and immediately toss them into a tank of hungry sharks, but that would not give us an understanding of why and maybe a way to prevent some cases of rape and abuse.

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 7:12PM #36
mountain_man
Posts: 39,312

Jun 25, 2012 -- 6:51PM, Fodaoson wrote:

Yes it is complicated issue( a point of agreement. The following is not an argument but thoughts based on some reading and some perusing of related research. I conditionally agree with “child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality “ A factor may be in the psychological-sexual development or non- development. The abuser may retain an early puberty peer-sexual mentality. It may be result of abuse at that stage of development or other trauma. It maybe because the abuser has never progressed fully into adult sexual development I have worked (counseling) with rape victims, abuse victims/families, within rapist (incarcerated) and abusers( alleged& incarcerated).


As with all human sexuality, there is no one way for anything. They are probably hundreds of different reasons that someone becomes an abuser. Each case is different.


My first reaction to the rapist/ abusers was to chain them to a ton of concrete, castrate them with a K-bar and immediately toss them into a tank of hungry sharks, but that would not give us an understanding of why and maybe a way to prevent some cases of rape and abuse.


That's right, by talking with these guys (mostly guys) we can learn and maybe do something to prevent some of this from happening.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 7:49PM #37
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 25, 2012 -- 6:51PM, Fodaoson wrote:


Mtm

“In other words, this is a complicated issue. But, let's start by acknowleging, again, that child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality -- homo, hetero or bi.


Mtm

“In other words, this is a complicated issue. But, let's start by acknowleging, again, that child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality -- homo, hetero or bi.

Yes it is complicated issue( a point of agreement. The following is not an argument but thoughts based on some reading and some perusing of related research. I conditionally agree with “child abuse/rape/molestation has nothing to do with adult sexuality “ A factor may be in the psychological-sexual development or non- development. The abuser may retain an early puberty peer-sexual mentality. It may be result of abuse at that stage of development or other trauma. It maybe because the abuser has never progressed fully into adult sexual development I have worked (counseling) with rape victims, abuse victims/families, within rapist (incarcerated) and abusers( alleged& incarcerated). My first reaction to the rapist/ abusers was to chain them to a ton of concrete, castrate them with a K-bar and immediately toss them into a tank of hungry sharks, but that would not give us an understanding of why and maybe a way to prevent some cases of rape and abuse.





You are correct, the causes could be many -- and might vary from case to case.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 11:05AM #38
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,770

Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I don't know where you get the "several posters" notion.



Um, from the several posters that object to gay people being treated equally before the law. DUH! (I could name them, since they do not hide their feelings, but I don't want to embarass them any more than their posts already do.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Some posters, including me, have raised objections to politically correct, gay-activist narrative regarding homosexuality/gay marriage.



So you ARE aware that there are more than one poster who do  type anti-equality posts. Hmmm ...


Meanwhile, what is "politically correct" (or 'incorrect') is entirely subjective.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Secondly, the "If society would just accept us, we wouldn't do bad things" plea seems weak to me.



Well, it WOULD be "weak" - if anyone were actually MAKING that "plea'. Since no one is, it's your post that appears "weak" - aka a falsehood.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 Grown-up adults should be able to own their decisons regarding sexuality, and not be hung up on what others think.



You could 'think' I had sevn toes and green hair and it would make not one iota of a difference in my life. What we seek is equal recognition of our perfectly legal marriages under the law. Frankly your opinions of me/us are quite irrelevant to my/our lives. You have an over-rated idea of your opinions and their affect on other people.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I think the implication that social stigma might cause gay men to enter vocations, such as the clergy, and end up molesting boys to be, ironically, incredibly degrading to gay men.



What an absurd statement. But if you really 'think' that, then perhaps you could contemplate ceasing to stigmatize gay people with such nonsense, atempting to somehow attach some connection to child-abuse to consenting adults.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I'm not sure what the effects of acceptance of homosexuality will be. That might be impossible to quantify.



If it were "acceptance" we sought you might have a point.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

On one hand, the view of those with homosexual attractions as monsters, and a legitimate target for hate, even violence, can't be done away with quickly enough, IMO. 



That's a laff and a half, coming from one who constantly promotes that 'view' here.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

On the other hand, morality is vital to society, and sexual morality particularly so. Enablement/encouragement of homosexuality can be seen as indicative of lax morality and permissiveness.



Bull s h i t! This is a prime example of you promoting that 'view'. When YOU cease doing so, others will not be led to believe such nonsense.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 Not to mention, the notion that homosexuality is just a benign variation along an arbitrary, relative spectrum of "normal" is dubious. 



Only in your mind is it "dubious". Most respected psychologicial, sociological associations DO blieve it is just that. Your repetition of this fallacy does not help.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 11:09AM #39
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 26, 2012 -- 11:05AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I don't know where you get the "several posters" notion.



Um, from the several posters that object to gay people being treated equally before the law. DUH! (I could name them, since they do not hide their feelings, but I don't want to embarass them any more than their posts already do.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Some posters, including me, have raised objections to politically correct, gay-activist narrative regarding homosexuality/gay marriage.



So you ARE aware that there are more than one poster who do  type anti-equality posts. Hmmm ...


Meanwhile, what is "politically correct" (or 'incorrect') is entirely subjective.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Secondly, the "If society would just accept us, we wouldn't do bad things" plea seems weak to me.



Well, it WOULD be "weak" - if anyone were actually MAKING that "plea'. Since no one is, it's your post that appears "weak" - aka a falsehood.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 Grown-up adults should be able to own their decisons regarding sexuality, and not be hung up on what others think.



You could 'think' I had sevn toes and green hair and it would make not one iota of a difference in my life. What we seek is equal recognition of our perfectly legal marriages under the law. Frankly your opinions of me/us are quite irrelevant to my/our lives. You have an over-rated idea of your opinions and their affect on other people.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I think the implication that social stigma might cause gay men to enter vocations, such as the clergy, and end up molesting boys to be, ironically, incredibly degrading to gay men.



What an absurd statement. But if you really 'think' that, then perhaps you could contemplate ceasing to stigmatize gay people with such nonsense, atempting to somehow attach some connection to child-abuse to consenting adults.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I'm not sure what the effects of acceptance of homosexuality will be. That might be impossible to quantify.



If it were "acceptance" we sought you might have a point.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

On one hand, the view of those with homosexual attractions as monsters, and a legitimate target for hate, even violence, can't be done away with quickly enough, IMO. 



That's a laff and a half, coming from one who constantly promotes that 'view' here.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

On the other hand, morality is vital to society, and sexual morality particularly so. Enablement/encouragement of homosexuality can be seen as indicative of lax morality and permissiveness.



Bull s h i t! This is a prime example of you promoting that 'view'. When YOU cease doing so, others will not be led to believe such nonsense.


Jun 25, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 Not to mention, the notion that homosexuality is just a benign variation along an arbitrary, relative spectrum of "normal" is dubious. 



Only in your mind is it "dubious". Most respected psychologicial, sociological associations DO blieve it is just that. Your repetition of this fallacy does not help.




Relax.


The main point is -- trying to equate gays with child molestation is false and unfair -- and I think everybody here agrees on that. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 1:52PM #40
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,770

Jun 26, 2012 -- 11:09AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Relax.


The main point is -- trying to equate gays with child molestation is false and unfair -- and I think everybody here agrees on that. 





Well, YOU are the one who spent post after post promulgating the 'belief' that gay people and our relationships are inherently 'lesser' than heterosexual ones. It's not such a big leap with 'thinking' like that.

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