Post Reply
Page 6 of 42  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 42 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 11:53PM #51
mountain_man
Posts: 40,244

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:53PM, MysticWanderer wrote:

... Native Americans pre-European Invasion were no better and no worse than the Europeans themselves.


Which was pretty much my point. No matter if they were violent or not that is no reason to kill them off.


The native societies varied greatly. Some of the greatest, and some of the last, warriors were from here in California where they all got along (for the most part) peacefully. There was plenty of food to go around and the living was easy. Hunting acorns instead of buffalo didn't make them weak.


Much of our government is patterned after the Iroquois League. They were not as violent as some would have us believe.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:36PM #52
Erey
Posts: 19,167

Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:53AM, MysticWanderer wrote:


It is unrealistic to speak of Native Americans as if they were one culture.  There were 500 independent nations on the North American continent prior to the European invasion.  All had their own history and own culture.  Some were actually quite bloodthirsty and others were almost nonviolent, some were still hunter-gatherers and others were farmers.  To lump them all in together or attribute any one custom to all is way too generalized, just as lumping all inhabitants of the Eurasian continent would be.





That is so true.  I am far from an expert but I have done some reading on some of the different nations.  I don't believe it ever would have been possible to coexist with the Comanches.  But there were other groups, too many to count that would have made good neighboors. 


People don't realize events like the small pox blankets were retaliation from when a group of American Indians entered a fort under the guise of playing a LaCrosse style game with the soilders and anyone else at the fort. Everyone was ready to relax  and have a good time and play a little sport.   They had weapons hidden under their robes that they pulled out unexpectedly and brutaly and horrificaly slaughtered every white person they could see. 


Not that this affords justification for plagues.  Then there were other situations like Sandy Creek where the Indian chiefs came with thier families, etc.  in good faith for peace and they were horribly slaughtered and vile things were done to their bodies.   

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 1:44PM #53
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:43PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:21PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Sounds like you need to get out more. And perhaps visit with some Native Americans.....


It sounds like you need to get your education from somewhere other than Hollywood and revisionist nonsense.


I lived on a reservation in North Dakota for 6 months. I know a few Indians.




I don't know why you keep bringing up Hollywood. 


You were the one presenting a white-washed "revisionist" (if that's the term you want to use) view. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 1:50PM #54
TemplarS
Posts: 6,924

None of this is unusual in the history of warfare and conquest. Nations have always conquered other nations as they had the capability, and it generally never ended well for the losers. 


I suppose one of the positive things about the 20th/21st century is we finally seem to have developed, most people anyway, some sort of conscience as regards how the losers of these things are treated.


But for sheer magnitude and swiftness, and in particular the blatant lies and hypocrisy and broken treaties and promises that accompanied it- not much in history can match what happened to the North American Indians.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 1:55PM #55
Erey
Posts: 19,167

Jun 18, 2012 -- 1:50PM, TemplarS wrote:


None of this is unusual in the history of warfare and conquest. Nations have always conquered other nations as they had the capability, and it generally never ended well for the losers. 


I suppose one of the positive things about the 20th/21st century is we finally seem to have developed, most people anyway, some sort of conscience as regards how the losers of these things are treated.


But for sheer magnitude and swiftness, and in particular the blatant lies and hypocrisy and broken treaties and promises that accompanied it- not much in history can match what happened to the North American Indians.





Actually it probably can be matched.  But that would require a more expansive knowledge of world history than I have at the moment.


 


I was skimming an article on CNN earlier today by Fared Zakaria (sp).  He was saying how dictatorships even the brutal kind have evolved and changed.  This is because of common personal technology.  Where in the world can you get away with genocide and not have it reported?  Maybe N. Korea where cell phones and UTube access is forbidden but you can't have a MAO or Pol POt anymore.    I think conquring is changing too. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 4:02PM #56
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Erey:


"People don't realize events like the small pox blankets were retaliation from when a group of American Indians entered a fort under the guise of playing a LaCrosse style game with the soilders and anyone else at the fort. Everyone was ready to relax  and have a good time and play a little sport.   They had weapons hidden under their robes that they pulled out unexpectedly and brutaly and horrificaly slaughtered every white person they could see."


Would you please cite your source on this?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 4:25PM #57
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Mystic:


"The wars between the Creek and Cherokee nations long predated Europeans and were limited in bloodshed only by the smaller size and lower technology of the societies."


I familiar with the conflict between the Creeks (Miscogee) and Cherokee during the French & Indian War (1733 - 1735). The wars between the Cherokee and the Delaware were much longer and more intense.


As far as I have read, no Indians practiced "total warfare" until the arrival of the Europeans. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 6:02PM #58
Erey
Posts: 19,167

Jun 18, 2012 -- 4:02PM, wohali wrote:


Erey:


"People don't realize events like the small pox blankets were retaliation from when a group of American Indians entered a fort under the guise of playing a LaCrosse style game with the soilders and anyone else at the fort. Everyone was ready to relax  and have a good time and play a little sport.   They had weapons hidden under their robes that they pulled out unexpectedly and brutaly and horrificaly slaughtered every white person they could see."


Would you please cite your source on this?





The Andrew Jackson Biography by Meacham.  In this particular instance it appears that the small pox had already entered in indian population ahead of the blankets. 


There must have been other small pox blanket situations besides thisone

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:01PM #59
wohali
Posts: 10,227
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:26PM #60
mountain_man
Posts: 40,244

Jun 18, 2012 -- 1:44PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

I don't know why you keep bringing up Hollywood.


I don't, you do. You keep bringing up a Hollywood version of what the Indians were like. Stop doing that and I'll stop mentioning Hollywood.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 6 of 42  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 42 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook