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Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 4:17PM #11
TPaine
Posts: 10,308

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:29PM, BDboy wrote:


>>>>>>>>>> Exactly.


However Fox news network may try to sell you the concept of "The original Christian nation" theory.


Having said that, it is agreed that, "modern America" was founded by Christians in most parts.



When Glenn Beck was still on Faux News he would have David Barton as a guest American history "expert." The thing to realize about Barton is that he has a history of inventing quotes and attributing them to Founding Fathers in order make the case that they wanted to establish a Christian nation. An article about Barton and his false quotes can be found Here.


The Christian Taliban, while a minority of American Christians, are relentlessly trying to establish a theonomy in the United States. Our Founding Fathers would find such a concept abhorrent.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."-- Thomas Paine: The Crisis No. V (March 21, 1778)
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 4:54PM #12
loveontheair
Posts: 4,057

Hello,



m_m said it best with..." This is a country filled with christians but not a christian nation."



This is and was a country filled with Christians. We just did not want a King or Dictator reigning over us. We didn't want anything to do with England. This is why we do have the separation of Church and State.



love

Good works will never produce faith, but faith will always produce good works. loveontheair
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 6:46PM #13
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:20PM, wohali wrote:


America started out as a stolen country.




Damned right we did!

We stole it from the British, who stole it from the French who stole it from the Indians.


We bought the the Louisiana Purchase from Napoleon, and Alaska from the Czar.


We stole California and Texas stole their own damned selves  from Mexico. 

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 7:31PM #14
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

Europeans and other outsiders took the North American continent from its indigenous peoples and claimed it as their own, as they did with Australia, New Zealand, and so many other places - as they always do - because might makes right.


It's a given.  Indigenous peoples never win.  The best that can happen is that their existence and culture is finally accepted and becomes part of the culture of the land in more enlightened times .


Be that as it may -


What if there had never been an American Revolution?  Because we know that at least one of the events that set off the chain of rebellion was this 'taxation without representation' claim that so angered the colonists.


Those early colonists were English, after all, and they thought of themselves as English.  And, as such, they demanded representation in Parliament as their right.


Of course, it didn't happen, and there was a revolution leading to the formation of the country we now know as the United States of America.


Or, what if the taxation problem had been settled, and, like Canada, the U.S would have become a country established by legislation?  Would the U.S. then be part of the Commonwealth today?


And, to keep on topic, if the U.S. had ended up part of the Commonwealth, would it be considered a Christian country?   


But, to even consider this, we have to understand that a country is not defined by its religious majority, anymore than it is defined by the predominant genetic traits of the populace.  The tenets and guidelines for moral standpoints are incorporated into our laws and social structure without religious reference.


So, although America had its roots in a Judeo-Christian cultural paradigm, it might more correctly be defined as a multi-cultural deist nation (with a - hopefully - secular government).


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 9:25PM #15
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:20PM, wohali wrote:

America started out as a stolen country.


No, we did not "steal" this country. We used biological warfare, wanton murder, and various violent means to take it. To the fine christians that started this country; the natives were in the way, not christian, and therefore; not worthy of respect. It is a religion, and god, of "love" you know.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 9:28PM #16
mountain_man
Posts: 44,029

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:29PM, BDboy wrote:

...Having said that, it is agreed that, "modern America" was founded by Christians in most parts.


And as our society matured we got away from those so called "christian" concepts such as killing off the natives and enslaving others just because they were of a different color. That would seem to be true for many countries; their advancements are best described as moving away from the "morals" of an outdated religion.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.   Isaac Asimov
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 9:15AM #17
TemplarS
Posts: 7,522

Jun 14, 2012 -- 7:31PM, solfeggio wrote:


Or, what if the taxation problem had been settled, and, like Canada, the U.S would have become a country established by legislation?  Would the U.S. then be part of the Commonwealth today?


And, to keep on topic, if the U.S. had ended up part of the Commonwealth, would it be considered a Christian country?   





American expansion would have continued.  Louisiana would have been acquired not through purchase but after the defeat of Napoleon.  Expansion at the expense of the Indians and the Mexicans would have continued in general, though perhaps the details (and today's borders) would be different. 


The next crisis would have come (as it did in the US) over slavery, which was abolished in the British Empire in the early 19th century.  


One would imagine the southern states would have not been content to let that ride, just as they were not content to let the election of Lincoln ride.  So something like the Civil War might have happened anyway; with England solidly on the side of the north (or vice versa) it might have ended a lot quicker.


But at some point the sheer magnitude of the size of the American colonies would have led to their functional independence anyway, probably as a member (or functional leader!) of the Commonwealth, just as happened with Canada; perhaps Canada and the US today would be the same nation.


The impact on the vast waves of immigration to the US  from other parts of Europe in the 19th century is something I'm not sure about. Legal issues would have been different, but the social pressure would doubtless have been the same, and I would guess something similar would have happened thouhg again perhaps with different details.


It gets more tentative in the 20th century, but it interesting to speculate what impact closer legal tied between Britain and the US would have had on German militarism in both world wars.


As far as religion goes, the CoE might have continued to be the nominal state church, but I imagine the diversity of American religious life in terms of the flourishing of different denominations would have proceeded apace; these things are driven by social and cultural matters, not politics.


But we surely would not have had something so defined as the first amendment as early as we did.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:36AM #18
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:25PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:20PM, wohali wrote:

America started out as a stolen country.


No, we did not "steal" this country. We used biological warfare, wanton murder, and various violent means to take it. To the fine christians that started this country; the natives were in the way, not christian, and therefore; not worthy of respect. It is a religion, and god, of "love" you know.




Many of the Natives weren't exactly gentle and loving toward one another before Europeans started showing up. Warfare and persecution between tribes and nations was common enough. 


For example, the Sioux bitterly complained about the fact that Whites used violence and deception to take the Black Hills from them. (Which was wrong). However, the fact still stands, they brutally drove out the people who were there before them too. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:05AM #19
TemplarS
Posts: 7,522

Ethnic conquest and displacement has been common throughout history, from the Ango-Saxons in Britain to the Turks in Central Asia and Anatolia.


But few seem to have done it as thoroughly or deliberately as in North America.


But the motives were much more economic than religious. When the strategy of converting the Native Americans conflicted with economic goals (as in the case of the Cherokees and related tribes in the early 1800s), conversion quite clearly  lost. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:21AM #20
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:05AM, TemplarS wrote:


Ethnic conquest and displacement has been common throughout history, from the Ango-Saxons in Britain to the Turks in Central Asia and Anatolia.


But few seem to have done it as thoroughly or deliberately as in North America.


But the motives were much more economic than religious. When the strategy of converting the Native Americans conflicted with economic goals (as in the case of the Cherokees and related tribes in the early 1800s), conversion quite clearly  lost. 




I agree. It was all about the money. 


It usually is. 

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