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Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 12:46AM #111
rangerken
Posts: 15,782

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone

Conservative, Libertarian, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 10:46AM #112
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Jul 3, 2012 -- 12:46AM, rangerken wrote:


This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone




Considering I challenge the initial thesis, I am not surprised.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 11:56AM #113
rangerken
Posts: 15,782

Jul 3, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 12:46AM, rangerken wrote:


This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone




Considering I challenge the initial thesis, I am not surprised.




Understandable challenge... and I thought that this forum was where the thread had to go. I have to think about some 'brilliant' post on topic :-).



Ken

Conservative, Libertarian, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 1:42PM #114
smcisaac
Posts: 7,696

Jun 15, 2012 -- 3:45PM, wohali wrote:


Mytmouse:


"Yes, the land I live on was stolen from Native American Indian tribes, who in turn, had driven off earlier paleo-Indian people."


I have to question the accuracy of your statement here.


Indians are decendants of paleo-Indians, just as my Scottish ancestors were decended from Pictish people.




...or Irish or Breton or Norse or Angle...or some of each...

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 2:49PM #115
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

Jul 3, 2012 -- 11:56AM, rangerken wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 12:46AM, rangerken wrote:


This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone




Considering I challenge the initial thesis, I am not surprised.




Understandable challenge... and I thought that this forum was where the thread had to go. I have to think about some 'brilliant' post on topic :-).



Ken




Oh, I don't plan to be brilliant, just matter of fact. If we were a Christian nation, then there would be a church tax involved, wouldn't there. Least-wise that is the way it is with all the other countries that have an official religion.



I don't, so we are not.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

-- Tori Amos
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 20, 2012 - 9:44AM #116
NATAS
Posts: 777

 


Jun 15, 2012 -- 3:45PM, wohali wrote:


Mytmouse:


"Yes, the land I live on was stolen from Native American Indian tribes, who in turn, had driven off earlier paleo-Indian people."


I have to question the accuracy of your statement here.


Indians are decendants of paleo-Indians, just as my Scottish ancestors were decended from Pictish people.




...or Irish or Breton or Norse or Angle...or some of each...




So before the Native American Indians were driven off by...illegal aliens, Native Americans stole land from other Native Americans?   

And as the best availble evidence suggest decendants from Africa.  


 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2012 - 2:13PM #117
MrDave
Posts: 865

I suggest reading David Barton's book, "ORIGINAL INTENT" to find out how Christian the founder's of our nation really were. With the exceptions of Franklin and Jefferson, most of the signer's of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution would be considered Christian.


This book quotes from their writings what they believed, not what some biased educator state's what they think they believed.


I think reading the words of the founding fathers versus what is being said today would be startling to all but the most closed minded.


The phrase "separation of church and state" was never in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or Bill of Rights, but was in a letter written by President Jefferson to Baptists in Danbury, CT. who feared that the newly established nation would try to impose a "state santioned" religion like other nations had.


Jefferson wrote 1/1/1802 to the Danbury Baptist Association:


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."


Not quite what is happening today.


 


 

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2012 - 5:00PM #118
MrDave
Posts: 865

America may not be Christian now, but see how courts felt about it in early years of America.



Updegraph vs The Commonwealth


We will first dispose of what is considered the grand objection--the constitutionality of Christianity--for, in effect, that is the question. Christianity, general Christianity, is and always has been a part of the common law . . . not Christianity founded on any particular religious tenets; not Christianity with an established church ... but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.


Thus this wise legislature framed this great body of laws, for a Christian country and Christian people. This is the Christianity of the common law . . . and thus, it is irrefragably proved, that the laws and institutions of this state are built on the foundation of reverence for Christianity. . . . In this the constitution of the United States has made no alteration, nor in the great body of the laws which was an incorporation of the common-law doctrine of Christianity . . . without which no free government can long exist.


To prohibit the open, public and explicit denial of the popular religion of a country is a necessary measure to preserve the tranquillity of a government. Of this, no person in a Christian country can complain. . . . In the Supreme Court of New York it was solemnly determined, that Christianity was part of the law of the land, and that to revile the Holy Scriptures was an indictable offence. The case assumes, says Chief Justice Kent, that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted on Christianity. The People v. Ruggles.


Peoples vs Ruggles – 1811


The people of this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice……


and for this plain reason, that the case assumes that we are a christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors. Besides, the offence is crimen malitiae, and the imputation of malice could not be inferred from any invectives upon superstitions equally false and unknown.


Vidal vs Girards Executors


It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania.


Holy Trinity Church vs United States


The case is famous for Justice Brewer's statements that America is a "Christian nation."


These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. 143 U.S. 457 (1892)[3]


While the case was not specifically about religion, the court considered America's Christian identity to be a strong support for its conclusion. Almost half of the text of the opinion is spent demonstrating America's Christian identity, in order to show that Congress could not have intended to prohibit the employment of ministers from foreign countries.


Justice Brewer published a book in 1905, titled The United States: A Christian Nation, in which he disagreed with the interpretation of the court's decision as a statement or endorsement by the Supreme Court that the United States is officially in law a "Christian Nation":



 


These are just scratching the surface, any actual study of the early years of America will confirm that our foundations were Christian, unlike today.


 

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
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2 years ago  ::  Aug 15, 2012 - 10:58PM #119
NATAS
Posts: 777

I think that there is a difference between a nation of christians and a christian nation.  


So far as I know Jesus Christ is not mentioned in either the Declartion of Independence.   


So far as I know Jesus Christ is not mentioned in any Supreme Court decisions.  


I find this to be interesting if as some claim that the U.S. is a country that was founded on Biblical Christian ideals.     


On the Great Seal of the United States there is not a single Christian symbol all the symbols are pagan.   There is not even a reference to God.  


From what Biblical verse does E Plubius Unium come from? 


From what Biblical verse does Novus Ordum Seclorum come from?


From what Biblical verse does Annuit Oceptus   come from?  


 

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2 years ago  ::  Aug 16, 2012 - 7:26AM #120
MrDave
Posts: 865

Aug 15, 2012 -- 10:58PM, NATAS wrote:

I think that there is a difference between a nation of christians and a christian nation.  


So far as I know Jesus Christ is not mentioned in either the Declartion of Independence.   


So far as I know Jesus Christ is not mentioned in any Supreme Court decisions.  


I find this to be interesting if as some claim that the U.S. is a country that was founded on Biblical Christian ideals.     


On the Great Seal of the United States there is not a single Christian symbol all the symbols are pagan.   There is not even a reference to God.  


From what Biblical verse does E Plubius Unium come from? 


From what Biblical verse does Novus Ordum Seclorum come from?


From what Biblical verse does Annuit Oceptus   come from?  


 


In a few weeks (3rd July), a new book is coming out, 'Nonbeliever Nation,' by secular advocate David Niose, in which the author argues that the idea of America as a Christian nation is largely a myth, and that America began with secular roots.  NOT IN EVIDENCE
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/...
And, in fact,, Niose challenges the reign of the Religious Right in America, claiming that nonbelievers are a rapidly growing group in the country,        SAD BUT TRUE
www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-06-13/
www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/20...
So, did America really start out as a secular country?  Are the Religious Right wrong to assume that theirs is the 'true' America?              TWO SIDES TO A STORY
I'll be interested to see what Niose has to say in his upcoming book.



 


The theme of this thread is that America STARTED OUT AS A SECULAR NATION. There is much evidence to the contrary as presented by David Baron's book "ORIGINAL INTENT" in which he QUOTES from just about all the State Constitutions, National Documents, personal writings of founding fathers, court cases, etc. Showing that regardless of what is being SAID the evidence shows that at the beginning the Christianity was the major influence behind how this nation was established. 

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
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