Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:24PM, solfeggio wrote:

(Are they referred to as Native Americans these days, or American Indians?  I've never been sure.  From what I've read, there is nothing wrong with calling an ethnic group Indians.)

solf,

I always refer to them as American Indians because Russell Means, who I had the pleasure of meeting and having lunch with in 1987, dislikes the term Native American. However, I think wohali is the person who should answer this question.

America was never a Christian nation, nor any other denomination; the founding fathers saw to that in the constitution. The founding fathers had enough evidence of what happens when you have a corrupt, self serving state religion like the RCC. They were not going to let that happen here.

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:59PM, mountain_man wrote:

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

No need to get defensive. I was just pointing out, there's a somewhat popular, simplified narrative that likes to act as if it was all sunshine and flowers here until the bad people -- Euro-Christians -- showed up and ruined everything....

The problem is that you got it wrong. You're reading the history as written by the victor. That is always slanted in a way to make them look better. The native cultures were no more violent than any other White culture, and in many cases more peaceful.

An example would be that scalping bit. It was taught to some of the East Coast societies by the French. They'd pay money - or guns - for scalps from nations not in line with the French.

Sure, they had wars, fights, over hunting grounds and such, but they "counted coup" by TOUCHING the opposing warrior. They didn't want to kill them because they knew that that guy had a wife and kids depending on him at home. It wasn't until the aggressive, violent, White invaders came and upset their cultures did the natives become violent.

Sounds like you need to get out more. And perhaps visit with some Native Americans.

Read Mystic Wanderer's post. Native Americans had a huge varieties of cultures. Some were as you've depicted, more or less pacifist. Others were very, very brutal to their enemies, long before Whites ever showed up.

The tradition of the warrior runs very deep in many Native cultures. During World War One, there's a story of German troops refusing to go forward, when they learned the enemy positions before them were held by Natives serving in the U.S. Army.

It was not for nothing that they were scared sh*tless.

As I mentioned before, to my knowledge, Natives are, per capita, the most highly decorated ethnic group in the U.S. military. I find it rather patronizing of you to assume they only became full-tilt ass-kickers because of what Whites taught them.

Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:21PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Sounds like you need to get out more. And perhaps visit with some Native Americans.....

It sounds like you need to get your education from somewhere other than Hollywood and revisionist nonsense.

I lived on a reservation in North Dakota for 6 months. I know a few Indians.

Jun 15, 2012 -- 9:59PM, mountain_man wrote:

Sure, they had wars, fights, over hunting grounds and such, but they "counted coup" by TOUCHING the opposing warrior. They didn't want to kill them because they knew that that guy had a wife and kids depending on him at home. It wasn't until the aggressive, violent, White invaders came and upset their cultures did the natives become violent.

Counting coup was a practice limited to the Plains Indians, unknown among the East Coast and Southwestern tribes.  As well your explanation is a trifle romantic; true they liked to count coup because it was considered braver than simply killing the other warrior but they easily killed one another in battle with no concern for widows and orphans,  The surviving dependents  were the other tribe's responsibility.  The wars between the Creek and Cherokee nations long predated Europeans and were limited in bloodshed only by the smaller size and lower technology of the societies.  While the Europeans paid for scalps, there is archeological evidence of scalping from as early as 1325 CE in central South Dakota.  The Native Americans pre-European Invasion were no better and no worse than the Europeans themselves.