Post Reply
Page 43 of 43  •  Prev 1 ... 38 39 40 41 42 43
Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
1 month ago  ::  Jan 22, 2015 - 11:25AM #421
Do_unto_others
Posts: 9,846

Copying & pasting Scripture isn't making an argument. It's called circular reasoning.

Quick Reply
Cancel
1 month ago  ::  Jan 26, 2015 - 11:13PM #422
Roymond
Posts: 1,790

Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:53PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:53PM, MysticWanderer wrote:

... Native Americans pre-European Invasion were no better and no worse than the Europeans themselves.


Which was pretty much my point. No matter if they were violent or not that is no reason to kill them off.


The native societies varied greatly. Some of the greatest, and some of the last, warriors were from here in California where they all got along (for the most part) peacefully. There was plenty of food to go around and the living was easy. Hunting acorns instead of buffalo didn't make them weak.


Much of our government is patterned after the Iroquois League. They were not as violent as some would have us believe.




One of the places I'd want to go to if I could journey back in time would be to the early days of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois name for themselves) League, and provide bits of technology to boost their status with other tribes, then work to extend the League to neighboring tribes.  I'd continue to provide more technology to keep extending their reach, so that when the Mayflower finally showed up they'd be facing technological equals in a 'nation' reaching from the Carolinas to Newfoundland to Hudson's Bay, around the Great Lakes, through Ohio and down to Tennessee.

Quick Reply
Cancel
1 month ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 11:22AM #423
amcolph
Posts: 18,928

Jan 26, 2015 -- 11:13PM, Roymond wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:53PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:53PM, MysticWanderer wrote:

... Native Americans pre-European Invasion were no better and no worse than the Europeans themselves.


Which was pretty much my point. No matter if they were violent or not that is no reason to kill them off.


The native societies varied greatly. Some of the greatest, and some of the last, warriors were from here in California where they all got along (for the most part) peacefully. There was plenty of food to go around and the living was easy. Hunting acorns instead of buffalo didn't make them weak.


Much of our government is patterned after the Iroquois League. They were not as violent as some would have us believe.




One of the places I'd want to go to if I could journey back in time would be to the early days of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois name for themselves) League, and provide bits of technology to boost their status with other tribes, then work to extend the League to neighboring tribes.  I'd continue to provide more technology to keep extending their reach, so that when the Mayflower finally showed up they'd be facing technological equals in a 'nation' reaching from the Carolinas to Newfoundland to Hudson's Bay, around the Great Lakes, through Ohio and down to Tennessee.




One of the difficulties you would have to contend with would be the infectious diseases--influenza, measles, smallpox--spread by pre-Columbian contact with Europeans which devastated native populations and disrupted their society.

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
Quick Reply
Cancel
1 month ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 1:47PM #424
Roymond
Posts: 1,790

Jan 27, 2015 -- 11:22AM, amcolph wrote:


Jan 26, 2015 -- 11:13PM, Roymond wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 11:53PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 10:53PM, MysticWanderer wrote:

... Native Americans pre-European Invasion were no better and no worse than the Europeans themselves.


Which was pretty much my point. No matter if they were violent or not that is no reason to kill them off.


The native societies varied greatly. Some of the greatest, and some of the last, warriors were from here in California where they all got along (for the most part) peacefully. There was plenty of food to go around and the living was easy. Hunting acorns instead of buffalo didn't make them weak.


Much of our government is patterned after the Iroquois League. They were not as violent as some would have us believe.




One of the places I'd want to go to if I could journey back in time would be to the early days of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois name for themselves) League, and provide bits of technology to boost their status with other tribes, then work to extend the League to neighboring tribes.  I'd continue to provide more technology to keep extending their reach, so that when the Mayflower finally showed up they'd be facing technological equals in a 'nation' reaching from the Carolinas to Newfoundland to Hudson's Bay, around the Great Lakes, through Ohio and down to Tennessee.




One of the difficulties you would have to contend with would be the infectious diseases--influenza, measles, smallpox--spread by pre-Columbian contact with Europeans which devastated native populations and disrupted their society.




I figure we'd have a welcoming committee for when the Spanish showed up, ambush them all and hold them prisoner.  Then when diseases popped up we'd make vaccines.  Laughing

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 weeks ago  ::  Feb 20, 2015 - 2:56PM #425
lucaspa
Posts: 571

Jan 27, 2015 -- 1:47PM, Roymond wrote:


I figure we'd have a welcoming committee for when the Spanish showed up, ambush them all and hold them prisoner.  Then when diseases popped up we'd make vaccines. 



You do realize that YOU would be the ones bringing diseases, right?  They might be different from what the original Europeans brought, but modern flu and even cold viruses would be just as deadly to that virgin population as any of the childhood diseases of the Europeans of the time.  


What the Amerindians would need is a welcoming comittee to kill all of you and immediately burn the bodies. 

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault."  Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works."  James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.
Quick Reply
Cancel
1 week ago  ::  Feb 22, 2015 - 11:59PM #426
Roymond
Posts: 1,790

Feb 20, 2015 -- 2:56PM, lucaspa wrote:


Jan 27, 2015 -- 1:47PM, Roymond wrote:


I figure we'd have a welcoming committee for when the Spanish showed up, ambush them all and hold them prisoner.  Then when diseases popped up we'd make vaccines. 




You do realize that YOU would be the ones bringing diseases, right?  They might be different from what the original Europeans brought, but modern flu and even cold viruses would be just as deadly to that virgin population as any of the childhood diseases of the Europeans of the time.  


What the Amerindians would need is a welcoming committee to kill all of you and immediately burn the bodies.




The diseases coming would be inevitable -- Europeans would just keep coming.


BTW, I wouldn't be bringing any diseases; my time machine has a bio-filter, of course.  Cool

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 days ago  ::  Mar 02, 2015 - 8:24PM #427
lucaspa
Posts: 571

Feb 22, 2015 -- 11:59PM, Roymond wrote:


Jan 27, 2015 -- 1:47PM, Roymond wrote:


I figure we'd have a welcoming committee for when the Spanish showed up, ambush them all and hold them prisoner.  Then when diseases popped up we'd make vaccines. 




You do realize that YOU would be the ones bringing diseases, right?  They might be different from what the original Europeans brought, but modern flu and even cold viruses would be just as deadly to that virgin population as any of the childhood diseases of the Europeans of the time.  


What the Amerindians would need is a welcoming committee to kill all of you and immediately burn the bodies.




The diseases coming would be inevitable -- Europeans would just keep coming.


BTW, I wouldn't be bringing any diseases; my time machine has a bio-filter, of course. 




And there you have a perfect example of an ad hoc hypothesis.  Your first hypothesis was that you in the time machine could protect the Amerindians from European diseases: "I figure we'd have a welcoming committee for when the Spanish showed up, ambush them all and hold them prisoner.  Then when diseases popped up we'd make vaccines."


I falsified that by pointing out that diseases would start long before the Spanish arrived: you would bring them.  Do we have a vaccine for the common cold?  But worse, you wouldn't have the technology to make them:  you were only bringing enough technology to make the Amerindians equal to the Europeans at the time.  Europeans did not have the technology to make vaccines.


So, having falsified your little pipe dream of keeping disease from devastating that native populations, you just conveniently ad hoc state you have a bio-filter.  Time machine technology is very different from bio-filter: having 1 does not guarantee the other.  But, even if you have the bio-filter, that doesn't work either, because some of the bugs that would make the Amerindians sick are necessary for our health.  If your bio-filter got rid of all the bacteria on your body, you get sick and probably die.


It wasn't the technology that defeated the Amerindians in 1620-1800.  Arrows and spears were almost as good as the primitive firearms of the colonists (except cannon).  What really caused the defeat of the Iroquois nation in 1779 was a culture that would not accept the certain death of some of the warriors in order to ensure victory.  The eastern tribes would not enter a battle knowing that some of the warriors would certainly be killed.  That is why they went for ambush.  When Washington's troops invaded the Iroquois nation, they set up an ambush.  The ambush was blown.  The Iroquois still had a commanding position and could have defeated the column, but the casualties would have been heavy.  Instead, they faded away and abandoned their homes, orchards, fields, etc. and the Iroquois nation became group of people in exile in Canada.  The Europeans would fight battles knowing that many of the soldiers would be killed, but the soldiers accepted that price for victory.  The eastern tribes never did, and so they lost. 

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault."  Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works."  James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 days ago  ::  Mar 03, 2015 - 2:26AM #428
Roymond
Posts: 1,790

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed, or what?  That's a pretty biting response over something presented as humor.


But you did make me realize something:  I could show up among the Iroquois, get them all vaccinated against all the diseases I carry -- and then we could invade Europe, and let them deal with all the diseases they wouldn't have defenses for yet!  It wouldn't even have to be a military invasion; just get volunteers to go as trade representatives or something.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 43 of 43  •  Prev 1 ... 38 39 40 41 42 43
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook