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Switch to Forum Live View 10 Facts Everyone Should Know About New York City’s ‘Stop-And-Frisk’ Policy
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 11:10AM #21
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:44AM, TPaine wrote:

True, but it's interesting that 85% of the time it was a black or Hispanic person who was suspected of doing something illegal although 94.63% of the time they weren't.


A fact they'll no doubt rationalize into irrelevance. The statistics, the facts, are irrelevant to Regressives. They WANT a police state. It's their main objective. It's easier to impose an plutocracy that way.


What they gladly ignore is that the crime rate in New York has gone down - but about HALF what it has in other large cities in the same time period. This "stop and frisk" creates an animosity, a divide, between the citizens and the police. Other cities that use less adversarial policing techniques such as community policing (a cop walking a beat) and police actually residing in the neighborhood - as a friend and neighbor - have had a greater reduction in crime and have SOLVED more crimes. If you see a cop as an enemy you are very unlikely to help in any investigation.


So, in other words; the facts be damned, police the hell out of them. They're all criminals anyway.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 1:20PM #22
arielg
Posts: 9,113
Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Tpaine wrote:

Do you think that race being one part of the criteria justifies the statistics that show 85% of those stopped were black or Hispanic even though those groups make up about half of NYC’s population, and that the number of stops involving young black men in 2011 (168,124) exceed the city’s population of young black men (158,406)?



It has nothing to do with the black of Hispanic POPULATIONS. It has to do with the populations of blacks and  Hispanics  who have commited crimes in the past and is therefore a factor in establishing  criteria. Stopping the same number of  little old ladies, to be "fair and equal" would be stupid and a lack of common sense.   

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 3:52PM #23
teilhard
Posts: 48,394

Probably a BETTER Deal, anyway, than living in Sanford, Florida, where Vigilantes are apparently allowed to SHOOT Guys for the "suspicious Activity" of wearing a "Hoodie" and carring a Bag of Skittles while walking Home to GrandPa's House ...


Jun 11, 2012 -- 2:08PM, TPaine wrote:

    1. In 2011, NYC officers made 685,724 stops as part of the “stop-and-frisk” policy. Of that group, 605,328 people were determined not to have engaged in any unlawful behavior. [NYCLU]

    2. Only 5.37% of all stops in a recent five-year period resulted in an arrest. In short, many people stopped did nothing wrong. [NYT, 5/17/12]

    3. In 2009, 36% of the time officer failed to list an acceptable “suspected crime.” Reasonable suspicion of a crime is required to make a stop. [NYT, 5/17/12]

    4. More than half of all stops last year were conducted “because the individual displayed ‘furtive movement’ — which is so vague as to be meaningless.” [NYT, 5/14/12]

    5. Of those frisked in 2011, a weapon was found just 1.9% of the time. Frisks are supposed to be conducted “only when an officer reasonably suspects the person has a weapon.” [NYCLU]

    6. 85% of those stopped were black or Hispanic even though those groups make up about half of NYC’s population. [NYT, 5/17/12]

    7. Young black and Latino men account for 4.7% of NYC’s population but 41.6% of the stops in 2011. [NYCLU]

    8. The number of stops involving young black men in 2011 (168,124) exceed the city’s population of young black men (158,406).[NYT, 5/15/12]

    9. Even in overwhelmingly white neighborhoods, police stopped more blacks than whites.[NYT, 5/15/12]

    10. In 2012, police are on pace to make more than 800,000 stops, more than twice the population of Miami. [NYT, 5/15/12] Link




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 12:43PM #24
TPaine
Posts: 9,054

Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Believing that there *is* an artifical racial bias is a belief based on your own interpretation of the statistics.



As is your belief there is no racial bias. A federal District Court judge disagrees with you. Link 1


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

But even if there *is* an artificial racial bias in this, I would prefer society to be a little bit racist than a little bit dead.



So you have no problem with racism even though 94.63% of those stopped did absolutely nothing wrong and a percentage of the 5.37% who were arrested committed no crime other than possession of a small amount of marijuana.


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

It may be difficult to say and it is certainly not PC, but a black man is more likely to be a criminal than a white man is (everything else considered equal, which it never is).



Much of black crime is gang related. At-risk teens join gangs because the desire for of power, respect, money and protection that they don't believe they can't get otherwise because feel they have ostracized from the community and are experiencing a lack of social support. Otherwise, FBI reports find that, other than gambling arrests, blacks statistically are no more likely to be criminals than whites. Link 2


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

And a man is much more likely to be a criminal than *any* woman, no matter what color she is.



Women are by nature less aggressive and violent than men. Whether the reason for that is societal or genetic is open to question.

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 1:04PM #25
TemplarS
Posts: 6,260

Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:


Much of black crime is gang related. At-risk teens join gangs because the desire for of power, respect, money and protection that they don't believe they can't get otherwise because feel they have ostracized from the community and are experiencing a lack of social support. Otherwise, FBI reports find that, other than gambling arrests, blacks statistically are no more likely to be criminals than whites.



I heard an interview a few weeks ago, with a couple of black teenagers who were (probably, are) subject to these frequent sorts of stops.  They happen to live in gang-infested areas, and were trying their hardest to avoid getting sucked into one of these gangs.  So here are the police, treating them like the gang members they are trying hard not to be.


On the other hand.  It is people who live in these neighborhoods who are the real victims of gangs.  Gang members can gun each other down until the cows come home for all I care, yet there are always innocent people caught in the crossfire too.  There needs to be some sort of a balance between innocent people feeling (somewhat) safe and innocent people being harrassed.


 


 



 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 1:24PM #26
TPaine
Posts: 9,054

Jun 17, 2012 -- 1:20PM, arielg wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Tpaine wrote:

Do you think that race being one part of the criteria justifies the statistics that show 85% of those stopped were black or Hispanic even though those groups make up about half of NYC’s population, and that the number of stops involving young black men in 2011 (168,124) exceed the city’s population of young black men (158,406)?


It has nothing to do with the black of Hispanic POPULATIONS. It has to do with the populations of blacks and  Hispanics  who have commited crimes in the past and is therefore a factor in establishing  criteria. Stopping the same number of  little old ladies, to be "fair and equal" would be stupid and a lack of common sense.



The Federal District Court for the Southern District of New York disagrees that it is based on past criminal activity. Link

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 5:54AM #27
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,173

Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Believing that there *is* an artifical racial bias is a belief based on your own interpretation of the statistics.



 A federal District Court judge disagrees with you. Link 1



I don't care what the judge believes. I have my own opinion.


Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

But even if there *is* an artificial racial bias in this, I would prefer society to be a little bit racist than a little bit dead.



So you have no problem with racism even though 94.63% of those stopped did absolutely nothing wrong and a percentage of the 5.37% who were arrested committed no crime other than possession of a small amount of marijuana.



That's a bit overboard. I have no problem with some racism if it makes our streets safer. Safe streets are more important to me than being PC. 



Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:



Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

It may be difficult to say and it is certainly not PC, but a black man is more likely to be a criminal than a white man is (everything else considered equal, which it never is).



Much of black crime is gang related.



I could not care less. It is a fact that more blacks are criminals than whites. I don't care why. As such, it is not only OK for race to be one criterion in stopping a person, but it SHOULD be one criterion. I'm being careful of my wording here. There are many other criteria, like how the person is acting, where he is, if he's alone or in a group, if he seems drunk or not, etc. etc. etc. etc. Many of these are indeed more important than the person's race.


To use this idea in a different framework, it is not only OK, but a requirement for law enforcement officials in the SouthWest of the U.S. to stop a vehicle that has occupants who *could* be illegal aliens. Or even to stop and question an individual who might be one. Race can, and this case certainly should be, a criterion. Blacks would likely get a bye in this case, as a black person is not likely to be illegal aliens.  


Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:56AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:

And a man is much more likely to be a criminal than *any* woman, no matter what color she is.



Women are by nature less aggressive and violent than men. Whether the reason for that is societal or genetic is open to question.



So, you are not bothered by this sexism, but you *are* bothered by the racism?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 5:56AM #28
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,173

Jun 18, 2012 -- 1:04PM, TemplarS wrote:

There needs to be some sort of a balance between innocent people feeling (somewhat) safe and innocent people being harrassed.



I tend to agree with you.


Personally, I would prefer a bit of harassment if I get in return, more safety.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 9:39AM #29
TPaine
Posts: 9,054

Jun 19, 2012 -- 5:54AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:


Women are by nature less aggressive and violent than men. Whether the reason for that is societal or genetic is open to question.



So, you are not bothered by this sexism, but you *are* bothered by the racism?



It's sexist to say that in general women are less aggressive and violent than men? I guess it would be to someone who considers aggression and violence to be a positive. I consider it to be a negative.

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 2:33PM #30
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,660

Jun 19, 2012 -- 9:39AM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 19, 2012 -- 5:54AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:43PM, TPaine wrote:


Women are by nature less aggressive and violent than men. Whether the reason for that is societal or genetic is open to question.



So, you are not bothered by this sexism, but you *are* bothered by the racism?



It's sexist to say that in general women are less aggressive and violent than men? I guess it would be to someone who considers aggression and violence to be a positive. I consider it to be a negative.




Female here, I don't consider it sexist to say women are less violent than men, especially since it appear to be a fact. I too, do not see aggression  as a positive.


And I have no interest in violent people of either gender.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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