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Switch to Forum Live View U.S. Commission On Civil Rights To Investigate ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws For Racial Bias
2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:47PM #21
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 10, 2012 -- 10:59PM, farragut wrote:


As bad as is the human toll on our highways, the toll of deer thereon is far worse. Let us be honest and expose the truth as distasteful as it may be. Speciesism is flourishing in the USA. It's systemic in certain areas and segments of our society.


 


Or perhaps there are some other underlying reasons for different results.





You're being too rational.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 11:14PM #22
teilhard
Posts: 51,416

I dunno ...


WHAT  IF  some of the Deer-on-the-Highways could "stand their Ground" with Rifles, Shotguns, and Pistols and start SHOOTING passing Motorists ... ???


"'Deer-in-the-HeadLights' ... ???  Hey, you stupid Humans ... !!! Are you talkin' about ME ... ???  BAM ... !!!  BAM ... !!! BAM ... !!!"


Jun 12, 2012 -- 8:47PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 10:59PM, farragut wrote:


As bad as is the human toll on our highways, the toll of deer thereon is far worse. Let us be honest and expose the truth as distasteful as it may be. Speciesism is flourishing in the USA. It's systemic in certain areas and segments of our society.


 


Or perhaps there are some other underlying reasons for different results.





You're being too rational.





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 11:36PM #23
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

The idea, the thought even, that any American citizen should be required, or expected to run away from danger and ever, EVER be prosecuted for standing up to it is to me, totally repugnant. If you're a coward, then by all means run. If you are at an obvious disadvantage for whatever reason and resisting would be suicidal then by all means run. Otherwise, stand your ground indeed!


There is nothing the least bit racist about allowing, and expecting, Americans to 'stand their ground'. The various laws say NOTHING about anyone's race!


Some things are simply sttupid, and this 'investigation' is one of those things.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 11:59PM #24
teilhard
Posts: 51,416

But ... It's ALWAYS about "Cases," isn't it ... ???


That terrible tragic Sory today from (I believe) Texas, e.g., in which a Guy caught a Creep in the very ACT of raping his 5 Year old Daughter, who was screaming for Help ... The Dad BEAT the Creep to DEATH with his bare Hands ... Should he be tried, much less found Guilty of something ... ???  Of course not ...


But ... If the Creep had been caught, say, stealing the NewsPaper off the front Step, and was armed with, say, a Bag of Skittles ... ???  Should the HomeOwner be let go after shooting and killing the Thief ... ??? Of course not ...


Jun 19, 2012 -- 11:36PM, rangerken wrote:


The idea, the thought even, that any American citizen should be required, or expected to run away from danger and ever, EVER be prosecuted for standing up to it is to me, totally repugnant. If you're a coward, then by all means run. If you are at an obvious disadvantage for whatever reason and resisting would be suicidal then by all means run. Otherwise, stand your ground indeed!


There is nothing the least bit racist about allowing, and expecting, Americans to 'stand their ground'. The various laws say NOTHING about anyone's race!


Some things are simply sttupid, and this 'investigation' is one of those things.


Ken





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 12:03AM #25
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Teilhard, you wrote...


"But ... It's ALWAYS about "Cases," isn't it ... ???"



You are right. It is always about cases. But the basic thing is that no one should be required to run away and no one should be penalized for not running away...it is just that simple in my opinion. And again , it is about individual casesA


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 9:41AM #26
Erey
Posts: 18,940

I gotta say, I sort of feel like you should try to run away or leave or backup before resorting to some kind of retaliatory violence.  It someone has you in a corner and you can't back up then you simply have to defend yourself.  But if you can backup, leave, run and you don't and someone ends up dead then I feel you made a tragic choice in standing your ground. 


When to backup and when to fight is going to be different for each circumstance but I think in this day of guns it is a good rule of law. 


To often people overreact or misconstrue the situation and backing up can save lives. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 11:55AM #27
BDboy
Posts: 5,831

Jun 19, 2012 -- 11:36PM, rangerken wrote:


The idea, the thought even, that any American citizen should be required, or expected to run away from danger and ever, EVER be prosecuted for standing up to it is to me, totally repugnant. If you're a coward, then by all means run. If you are at an obvious disadvantage for whatever reason and resisting would be suicidal then by all means run. Otherwise, stand your ground indeed!


There is nothing the least bit racist about allowing, and expecting, Americans to 'stand their ground'. The various laws say NOTHING about anyone's race!


Some things are simply sttupid, and this 'investigation' is one of those things.


Ken




 


>>>>>>>>> You made some good points.


However even good laws can be abused by SOME people. Do you think some laws should never be revisited to ensure it is not unfairly used against other citizens?


 


I agree with you that, text of this law have nothing to do with race. However knowing the race relations of the US and history of the us. Should we not try to be careful to ensure a law is not being abused some racists?


 




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 6:24PM #28
REteach
Posts: 14,821

Jun 20, 2012 -- 12:03AM, rangerken wrote:

no one should be penalized for not running away...it is just that simple in my opinion. And again , it is about individual cases


Ken




Ken, when I took the NRA gun safety classes, they made a point about avoiding confrontation if possible.  


I think the concern prompting the investigation is whether blacks are allowed to stand their ground, or only whitish people are. After all, Zimmerman was initially let go, yet he followed Martin--was Martin not allowed to stand his ground? Do the dead not get the right to stand their ground just because they can't testify as to how much threat they perceived?

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 12:00AM #29
teilhard
Posts: 51,416

Agreed ...


But ... "NOT Running Away" is NOT the Crime charged; "HOMICIDE" is the Crime Charged, yes ... ???


Jun 20, 2012 -- 12:03AM, rangerken wrote:


Teilhard, you wrote...


"But ... It's ALWAYS about "Cases," isn't it ... ???"



You are right. It is always about cases. But the basic thing is that no one should be required to run away and no one should be penalized for not running away...it is just that simple in my opinion. And again , it is about individual casesA


Ken





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 7:47PM #30
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

Jun 20, 2012 -- 12:03AM, rangerken wrote:


Teilhard, you wrote...


"But ... It's ALWAYS about "Cases," isn't it ... ???"



You are right. It is always about cases. But the basic thing is that no one should be required to run away and no one should be penalized for not running away...it is just that simple in my opinion. And again , it is about individual casesA


Ken



I agree that people have the right to defend themselves, but I don't think people, should be allowed to instigate a confrontation and still be able to claim self-defense. The law has caused what I believe to be some patently stupid judicial decisions such as:

People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended. One man killed two unarmed people and walked out of jail. Another shot a man as he lay on the ground. Others went free after shooting their victims in the back. In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free. Link


"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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