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Switch to Forum Live View U.S. Commission On Civil Rights To Investigate ‘Stand Your Ground’ Laws For Racial Bias
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:02AM #11
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:35PM, arielg wrote:

No one is denying there is a problem...


You did, and just did it again.


If  Al Sharpton....


I could not care less what he does.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 1:33AM #12
teilhard
Posts: 50,086

***Just mention anything said by "Rev. Al Sharpton," and some Folks immediately reject what he said just because HE said it ...


Indeed, NO  ONE  lives "in a Vacuum" ...


Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:35PM, arielg wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 8:54PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 8:37PM, arielg wrote:

This kind of bean counting does nothing to solve any problem but keep strengthening the divisions.


Denying there is a problem doesn't solve anything either. It's best to be honest and expose the truth as distasteful as it may be. Racism is flourishing in the USA. It's systemic in certain areas and segments of our society.




No one is denying there is a problem. But "according to the Commission, there are “some indicators of racial bias” in how the laws have been implemented." Big freaking deal. Some indication of racial bias.


There are a thousand details and aspects that one could observe in any particular incident. To keep focusing on the race aspect already shows a bias, which helps to keeps fixating the race problem. 


 Nothing is said  in the data studied about anyhing but the race of the people involved in it.  Nothing about any of the other circumstances.  As if  these things happen in a vacuum.


 ***If  Al Sharpton  looks at an incident, he will first see race, because that is already in his mind. Some people seem to have adopted this way of looking.   Like  self fulfilling prophesies.






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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 7:00AM #13
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:02AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:35PM, arielg wrote:

No one is denying there is a problem...


You did, and just did it again.


If  Al Sharpton....


I could not care less what he does.




Your typical just playing with attacking  words  bullshit. If you don't have anything to say, don't bother.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 8:51AM #14
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,067

farragut:  As bad as is the human toll on our highways, the toll of deer thereon is far worse. Let us be honest and expose the truth as distasteful as it may be. Speciesism is flourishing in the USA. It's systemic in certain areas and segments of our society.


As someone who was riding in a car used as some sort of dare by a buck so close you could count the hairs on his behind, I favor an educational program for deer, like "Just Say NO", except instead of drugs, it encourages bucks to stop thinking running in front of a fast-moving vehicle when there is five miles of nothing BEHIND that car will get chicks.


teilhard:  ***Just mention anything said by "Rev. Al Sharpton," and some Folks immediately reject what he said just because HE said it ...


To be fair, it's because he's a douchebag.


One interesting thought about this racial bias angle:  a white-Hispanic man killed a black kid and will most likely get off.  A woman merely threatened an abusive husband (I forget the race, but IIRC they were white) and was sent straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars.  While we're talking about bias, let's add gender bias, shall we?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 9:26AM #15
teilhard
Posts: 50,086

Whether there IS a concerted "Racial" or "Gender" Bias in applying the "Hunting Humans" Law, it DOES seem clear that The Law is DEEPLY flawed ... not least because there is reportedly NO Consistency in its Application and in Case Law thus far ...


Jun 11, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Iwantamotto wrote:


farragut:  As bad as is the human toll on our highways, the toll of deer thereon is far worse. Let us be honest and expose the truth as distasteful as it may be. Speciesism is flourishing in the USA. It's systemic in certain areas and segments of our society.


As someone who was riding in a car used as some sort of dare by a buck so close you could count the hairs on his behind, I favor an educational program for deer, like "Just Say NO", except instead of drugs, it encourages bucks to stop thinking running in front of a fast-moving vehicle when there is five miles of nothing BEHIND that car will get chicks.


teilhard:  ***Just mention anything said by "Rev. Al Sharpton," and some Folks immediately reject what he said just because HE said it ...


To be fair, it's because he's a douchebag.


One interesting thought about this racial bias angle:  a white-Hispanic man killed a black kid and will most likely get off.  A woman merely threatened an abusive husband (I forget the race, but IIRC they were white) and was sent straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars.  While we're talking about bias, let's add gender bias, shall we?





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:04AM #16
BDboy
Posts: 5,160

Jun 10, 2012 -- 10:18PM, teilhard wrote:


May "God" Bless(+) the Family of Trayvon Martin for REFUSING to let these Injustices continue ...


P.S. -- I'm a "White Guy" too, and also a Gun Owner ...




 


>>>>> Glad to hear that. This case raised enough questions to justify a re-examination of how this law will be applied.


From the outset this sounds like a "Fair" law but it is more important to make sure there are "Safeguards" in place against any abuse of this "Right".


We have to ensure laws are there to protect innocent people not protecting the bad guys.


:-)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:38AM #17
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:00AM, arielg wrote:

Your typical just playing with attacking  words  bullshit. If you don't have anything to say, don't bother.


Oh, I have lots to say on this topic. When someone worth discussing it with comes around, I'll gladly discuss it with them.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:06PM #18
mindis1
Posts: 7,509

Jun 10, 2012 -- 7:09PM, TPaine wrote:

According to the Commission, there are “some indicators of racial bias” in how the laws have been implemented. From the release:

    Data compiled by the Wall Street Journal shows a near-doubling of justifiable homicides from 2005-2011 in states where SYG [Stand Your Ground] has passed. Moreover, their data shows that while white killers of black victims comprises only 3.1% of all homicides, such cross-racial killing constitute 15.6% of justifiable homicides.

A separate study by the FBI found “34% of cases involving a white shooter killing a black person were deemed as a justifiable homicide. Meanwhile, in similar situations, when the shooter was black and the victim was white, the homicide was ruled justifiable only 3.3% of the time.” Link



I was unable to find either the WSJ article or the FBI study. The Scribd document linked to in the OP article (www.scribd.com/doc/96430532/U-S-Commissi...) indicates it is a USCCR document, but neither of the links to the referenced WSJ articles leads anywhere.


The description of the FBI study suggests that these data are from cases in which the judges in the cases ruled the incidents to be justifiable homicide, rather than being verdicts by juries.  I wonder if juries are less racist in their verdicts than judges in their rulings?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:18PM #19
mountain_man
Posts: 38,780

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:06PM, mindis1 wrote:

...The description of the FBI study suggests that these data are from cases in which the judges in the cases ruled the incidents to be justifiable homicide, rather than being verdicts by juries.  I wonder if juries are less racist in their verdicts than judges in their rulings?


That's part of the problem; these cases are heard, and settled, by a judge and not a jury. Often, as in the Trayvon Martin case, by a cop on the street. In many jurisdictions these judges are elected. They are bound by the politics of their area. Much of  the higher court justices are Republican appointees and not  the most racially sensitive group.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 1:48PM #20
teilhard
Posts: 50,086

Exactly so ...


The whole Legal Doctrine of "Self Defense" is ALWAYS good to review in ANY Case with respect to ANY applicable Law ...


Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:04AM, BDboy wrote:


Jun 10, 2012 -- 10:18PM, teilhard wrote:


May "God" Bless(+) the Family of Trayvon Martin for REFUSING to let these Injustices continue ...


P.S. -- I'm a "White Guy" too, and also a Gun Owner ...




 


>>>>> Glad to hear that. This case raised enough questions to justify a re-examination of how this law will be applied.


From the outset this sounds like a "Fair" law but it is more important to make sure there are "Safeguards" in place against any abuse of this "Right".


We have to ensure laws are there to protect innocent people not protecting the bad guys.


:-)





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