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Locked: The Islamophobia Industry Strikes in Kansas
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:08PM #81
BDboy
Posts: 4,557

Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:11AM, TemplarS wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 7:52AM, BDboy wrote:



My question is when did ANY Muslim proposed to stone anyone? Hypocricy and drama with no substance.






To be fair, BD, you need to qualify that with Muslim in the US.


Frankly, this is part of the problem.  There are instances of other abhorrent foreign cultural practices (not limited to Islam, I want to be clear- I use the word cultural as opposed to religious for a reason) finding their way to the US.  So-called "honor killing" for one, female genital mutilation for another. 


The fear is that this sort of thing will find some sort of justification in various "laws" of the newcomers. Particularly as the 1st amendments guarantee of free exercise of religion might carve out some sort of exemption for some practices (I think this has been argued for things like animal sacrifice).


Some of these practices (honor killing, obviously) are clearly against the law in the US. I'm not sure about female genital mutilation.  It should go without saying that when a person moves to this country there is an implicit understanding that they agree to abide by the laws of this country.  I agree that it is uncessary today, but I imagine some people feel if needs to be explicitly said.


There is  no doubt whasoever that anti-Muslim prejudice plays into this, and I understand why Muslims in particular will be offended by this. 


But dealing with it requires more than a "you are a bigot" dismissal.  There are objectionable cultural practices going on elsewhere in the world; what is necessary is a recognition of this followed by an explanation of why these practices are not a threat to the US.




 


>>>>>>>>> Sharia does not cover "Cultural practices". For example women in Saudi Arabia cannot drive a car (They can fly a plane!! but I'll leave it for another discussion). This is cultural. Because no other Muslim majority country agree to it.


Same with "Honor killing". Which has been clearly banned by Islam. Muhammad (PBUH) was the first one who banned killing female infants (Was a common practice in Arabia around 1400 years ago). The Qur'an has verses about it.


Honor killing is practiced by people of many faiths in certain parts of the world. It is not part of Islam or for any God for that matter. Only stupid men with fragile ego support such idiotic practice.


I'll give you a better example. Muslim men are "Allowed" (Not a law rather a permission with some added responsibilities ties it it) to marry UP TO four women.


It is understood it is against law of the US. I have NOT heard anyone demanding to change this law!!


American Muslims are not unfamilier with American laws. Those who migrated to the US understand what the law says. In fact in Muslim majority countries only 2%-4% men take the "Option" of having multiple wives, where it is 100% legal.


BUT this is NOT my concern. not at all.


I was wondering when NO major Muslim organizations (I know the big once very well) are asking for Sharia to replace any existing laws, WHY are CERTAIN non-Muslims are making such bog deal out of nothing?


Please note, Sharia is just an excuse here. Last year it was ground zero mosque, few years ago it was Iraq war. It is a VERY disturbing trend. Sadly America has been hijacked by populist A-holes too many times.


Now, the much debated "Ground zero mosque" opened without any problem. In fact it is opned to people of all faith honoring/show casing pluralistic community in Muslim Spain.


I am not all that worried about Sharia. Any fair minded person will quit worry about Sharia once they know what is it all about. But why SOME people pick up an excuse to go after Muslim Americans, I do not know......




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:14PM #82
rabello
Posts: 19,326

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:42PM, BDboy wrote:


>>>>>>> I think you misunderstood. To say "Yes" or "No" to ANYTHING, you should know what it is!!


In the case of child pornography, you HAVE To know what it is. You need not to "Study" it or watch it for an year to know what it is. BUT a lawmaker has to know the definition, limits of any subject they want to support or reject.


Lawmakers get paid for this research and public service.


If I am your congressman and I need to vote on additional schools in the district. I have to study the budget sitution, school situation, tax situation etc.


Same with Sharia. As a common person, you can learn about it (Don't have to practice it or endorse it). It will make your opinions more credible. :-)



>>>>>>> Still not clear, if this ain't nothin, why so many people have to vote AGAINST it?




From the comments so far, it looks like the real experts in Islam are conservative Christians so I think that's your answer.    Muslims want to make women in America wear burquas and the good red-blooded citizens of Kansas aren't about to allow that.    Remember, Brown v Board came out of Kansas, too, just like Westboro Baptist Church, and the assassination of Dr Tiller, too.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 5:39PM #83
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,477

Rabello


The non-Martian Muslims on this board and just about everywhere else have abandoned the field to the Martians and the Christian extreme "conservatives" to define Islam. It was not a smart move.


There are, in fact, all sorts of things average non-Muslim Americans may not like in normative Islam, but there are all sorts of things average non-Muslim Americans do not like in all the other religions in America except their own (it is why we have so many denominations, religious sects, and religions). However, if the non-Martian Muslims would even attempt to explain Islam they would probably find that the average non-Muslim American would not be particularly anti-Islam (or at least no more anti-Islam than they might be anti-Mormon or anti-Baptist or anti-Catholic, etc... ) Of course, we will never know because the normative Muslims (the non-Martian varieties) just are not making any meaningful attempt at explaining to the non-Muslim Americans what Islam actually is and what is is not.   It is the normative Muslims who are "Islamaphobic" - they seem to be afraid of teaching the world what Islam actually is - and I can not figure out why. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 6:20PM #84
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,767

I beg to differ. 


I've seen/read/heard numerous efforts of devout Muslims -- Americans or otherwise -- to disavow terrorists, and correct common assumptions about Islam. 


And I live way out in the hinterlands of Wyoming. I find it hard to believe that anybody who lives in a major metropolitan area would not have easy and direct access to the efforts of Muslims to defend their faith from the sterotypes of the fanatics. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 10:13PM #85
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,477

Do you read these forums?


What you usually get is silence or excuses or vague statements that "that isn't Islam" followed by other statements which indicate complete agreement with the Martian view if not necessarily the Martian methods.  I recommend visiting the DI board. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:56AM #86
Erey
Posts: 17,351

At the end of the day I don't blame people for being anti-Sharia.  Sharia is a damaged word, one that evokes some pretty terrible images.   So I am sure as it pertains to the muslims who want sharia court access they are going to have to do some serious PR work if they think acceptance by the general public is important.


The other religious groups who seek religious rulings don't have this kind of baggage.  But at the end of the day people have a right to bring in religious or other elements into their civil contracts. 


There are alot of comments about how Sharia is not fair to women, which certainly appears IMO to be true at least sometimes.  However, freedom for women, and equality for women demand that women have the right to engage as they see fit with their religion.  Our legal system is not set up to ensure all women are treated fairly.  It is set up for women to have limited protections by we don't enforce those protections if the woman forgoes it.  But it is her choice.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:06AM #87
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,767

Jun 14, 2012 -- 10:13PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Do you read these forums?


What you usually get is silence or excuses or vague statements that "that isn't Islam" followed by other statements which indicate complete agreement with the Martian view if not necessarily the Martian methods.  I recommend visiting the DI board. 




I don't think there's any love lost in the Arab/Muslim world for America and Israel. But then again, there is some cause in the Arab/Muslim world to not be too wild about America and Israel. 


I'm not saying that justifies terrorism -- either directly or by proxy.


But some people seem to think, unless and until Arabs/Muslims start slobbering all over America and Israel, and acting as if our sh*t doesn't stink, that somehow makes them "bad" people -- or on the side of terrorists. 


Therefore, yes, many Muslim who might not ever dream of terrorism, or supporting it in any way -- and might even outright hate Jihadist fanatics, might still seem rather apathetic about Americans and Isrealis getting killed by said fanatics. And, they might not feel particularly compelled to apologize for it, or try to explain their religion and culture to people who are going to be hostile toward it anyway. 


In my experience, many even fairly liberal, open minded and worldly Americans really don't care a crap about learning anything about Islam, or the richness and legacy of Arab/Muslim culture, and its influence on our world. They just want to keep passing around the same old antecdotes about Muhammed raping a 9-year-old, and how beating the living crap out your wife (or wives) is supposedly universally ingrained in Islamic culture.


And forget about more conservative Americans. They just consider Arab culture to be primitive and brutish (even more so than liberals do), Muslims to more or less be worshiping Satan by proxy -- and would just as soon see Israel nuke all its neighbors. 


Hey, maybe Jews messed up by not loving the Baby Jesus... but at least they ain't Mooslims. So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 


And let's not even get in to the current anti-Muslim xenophobia in Europe. 


So, in summary, perhaps when Muslims have a reason to care what Americans and others in the West think about them, they might start caring a crap in return. Until then, I, sadly, see a lot of apathy on both sides. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:34AM #88
TemplarS
Posts: 6,250

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:06AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 




Does not equate to Jews-- good.


It is partly a matter of realpolitik: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Israel opposed the Arabs back in the day when the Arabs were backed and armed by the Soviets.  Nowadays, Israel opposes what is seen as fundamentalist Islam (Iraq, Hezbollah, Hamas).


And, for some, a sort of Christian fundamentalist literalism which (based on one quite tentative interpretation of Revelation) certain things involving Jerusalem must happen before the second coming.


But that does not mean these people love Jews.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:58AM #89
Erey
Posts: 17,351

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:06AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 10:13PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Do you read these forums?


What you usually get is silence or excuses or vague statements that "that isn't Islam" followed by other statements which indicate complete agreement with the Martian view if not necessarily the Martian methods.  I recommend visiting the DI board. 




I don't think there's any love lost in the Arab/Muslim world for America and Israel. But then again, there is some cause in the Arab/Muslim world to not be too wild about America and Israel. 


I'm not saying that justifies terrorism -- either directly or by proxy.


But some people seem to think, unless and until Arabs/Muslims start slobbering all over America and Israel, and acting as if our sh*t doesn't stink, that somehow makes them "bad" people -- or on the side of terrorists. 


Therefore, yes, many Muslim who might not ever dream of terrorism, or supporting it in any way -- and might even outright hate Jihadist fanatics, might still seem rather apathetic about Americans and Isrealis getting killed by said fanatics. And, they might not feel particularly compelled to apologize for it, or try to explain their religion and culture to people who are going to be hostile toward it anyway. 


In my experience, many even fairly liberal, open minded and worldly Americans really don't care a crap about learning anything about Islam, or the richness and legacy of Arab/Muslim culture, and its influence on our world. They just want to keep passing around the same old antecdotes about Muhammed raping a 9-year-old, and how beating the living crap out your wife (or wives) is supposedly universally ingrained in Islamic culture.


And forget about more conservative Americans. They just consider Arab culture to be primitive and brutish (even more so than liberals do), Muslims to more or less be worshiping Satan by proxy -- and would just as soon see Israel nuke all its neighbors. 


Hey, maybe Jews messed up by not loving the Baby Jesus... but at least they ain't Mooslims. So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 


And let's not even get in to the current anti-Muslim xenophobia in Europe. 


So, in summary, perhaps when Muslims have a reason to care what Americans and others in the West think about them, they might start caring a crap in return. Until then, I, sadly, see a lot of apathy on both sides. 


 




 


It does not matter to me or I think even very many Israelis or Americans if the arab/muslim world is apathetic about them.  Nobody cares.  Sometimes hatred can make you uncomfortable for sure but even that if contained is easily tolerated. 


I do think anyone immigrating here should be able to develop some love for the general population that lives here.  Perhaps that is a crazy thought of mine but I think it helps to ensure a better quality of life all around. 


I have gotten to know alot of muslims, lots through my schooling, the kids schooling, work, extended friendship circles, neighboorhood and even a long time ago through dating.  As far as I am concerned if they keep doing what they are doing by participating as they are in american community life then that is all I think anyone can ask for. 


I don't think you can read what you read in the news and watch what you watch in the news and not develop some kind of mixed feelings about muslims as a group.  I certainly think you have to be very educated on the subject to not have an immediate negative reaction to sharia.  Whose fault is it that muslims, especially extremely devoute and radicialized muslims appear to be dangerous?  You can blame the media to a certain extent and you can blame stupid old americans for not being sophisticated enough to see past the media but at some level you have to blame certain aspects of muslim culture.   


Radical Islam is a post-modern trend and it is one that really seized the hearts and minds of many muslims alot of the muslim world was really on fire with this idea of creating a more perfect and pure muslim societies and Islamic domination.  Much like how the Nazis really engaged a certain percentage of the western minds and hearts.  But much like the Nazis this Radical Islam is already dying.  It is just not that compelling.  However just like the Nazis it will live on indefinately but not really the threat it once was. 


 


My point is Mytmouse at some point blaming the stupid americans because we are not embracing sharia on any level in our country even a low level starts to ring a little hollow and it seems also a little sophmoric.  Naturally, your average american is going to think muslims practicing such an ugly world like Sharia in the US is a real threat.  How can you blame them when the impression they have of sharia is pretty nasty.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:04PM #90
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,767

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:34AM, TemplarS wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:06AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 




Does not equate to Jews-- good.


It is partly a matter of realpolitik: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Israel opposed the Arabs back in the day when the Arabs were backed and armed by the Soviets.  Nowadays, Israel opposes what is seen as fundamentalist Islam (Iraq, Hezbollah, Hamas).


And, for some, a sort of Christian fundamentalist literalism which (based on one quite tentative interpretation of Revelation) certain things involving Jerusalem must happen before the second coming.


But that does not mean these people love Jews.




Oh, there's a good job done of pretending to love Jews/Irsael. Just watch Fox -- they are constantly slobbering over Jews and Israel.


However, you could be correct. If the "A-rabs and Mooslims" weren't there to fear and hate, then many of those folks would probably go right back to the Jewish money-grabber, Christ-killer stereotypes.

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