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Switch to Forum Live View The Islamophobia Industry Strikes in Kansas
5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 6:05PM #51
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Jun 12, 2012 -- 5:45PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Most people are not too mean, too stupid, too racist or anything else.


What most people have is a view of Islam which has been provided by a small (but not that small) group of Muslims who happen to have a particular idea about Islam which in many respects is different from that of the majority of Muslims.Since that view of Islam is antithetical to much (but not all) of the beleifs and practices of a majority of Americans (and other non-Muslims as well) and as that view of Islam calls for physical war to be waged against America etc... there is nothing phobic about being wary of that group.


I am sorry but the only "Islamophobes" I have seen are the ones who are to afraid to criticize the beliefs of the Martians and who are too afraid to stand up for their own form of Islam and its beliefs and practices and who are afraid or unwilling to explain their own view of Islam and how they may differ from that of the Martians. The biggest Islamphobe here is the author of the OP. 


Unless and until the majority of Muslims are willing to state that the Martians are not them and that the aims of the Martians are not theirs the rest of the world not only has the right but has the responsibility to be cautious. 


As I have said before, those of us who are familiar with Islam and its many varieties but are not Muslims are getting sick and tired of trying to explain to the world that the Martians are not normative Muslims when we get zippo help in this regard from normative Muslims.




 


I dont' think I am with you on the martian analogy or the responsibilities of non maritians. 


But Sharia is a damaged word.  Most americans know at least superficialy some muslims and they can't imagine the muslims they know actually striving to practise sharia.  They seem like such nice people!


To be perfectly honest, I think it might have been a couple of years ago I remember learning that it is legal to have sharia rulings in the UK.  My head about popped off!  How could the UK be so craven and stupidly PC was just beyond me.  It was a sign of how far the UK had fallen.  Until I was educated by some people here on what that really meant and what that did not mean.  I live in a very international area and work with all kinds of people including muslims and my gut reaction was "hell no!".  Now I am better educated on the subject and I no longer feel that way. 


But alot of people are not and we are going to have to push past the initial reaction of you have got to be joking banning sharia in the US is a nobrainer.    My biggest disapointment is not with the regular people who join the anti-sharia bandwagon.  But rather the typically much more educated legislators who seize the situation to enflame the constituents and make a bit of political hay.  There is no excuse for them to be uneducated on the subject .

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:27PM #52
christzen
Posts: 8,781

Jun 12, 2012 -- 6:05PM, Erey wrote:


  My biggest disapointment is not with the regular people who join the anti-sharia bandwagon.  But rather the typically much more educated legislators who seize the situation to enflame the constituents and make a bit of political hay.  There is no excuse for them to be uneducated on the subject .




 


I'm not exactly sure why it should be the responsibility of a Kansas legislator, or any other politician for that matter, to become educated on Sharia law.


 


I'm also not sure what all the hullaballo is about with this law. It bascally says all people ,including Muslims, will be treated the same as any other American before the law.  There is nothing at all discriminatory about treating Muslms they same as everyone else, and saying they cannot appeal to Sharia law in Kansas courts.


 



 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:15PM #53
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,506

These kind of law  are just silly and a waste of legislative time and effort.  The new law, taking effect July 1,  says courts, administrative agencies or state tribunals can't base rulings on any foreign law or legal system that would not grant the parties the same rights guaranteed by state and U.S. constitutions.  Article VI of the US constitution says ”  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”


If the proponents of the Kansas law and similar ones are not careful it will come back to bite them on the behind.  The groups pushing  the laws also  were  pushing posting the
Ten Commandments  which is of another Middle eastern culture origin, Judaism 


“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:51PM #54
christzen
Posts: 8,781

Jun 12, 2012 -- 8:15PM, Fodaoson wrote:


These kind of law  are just silly and a waste of legislative time and effort.  The new law, taking effect July 1,  says courts, administrative agencies or state tribunals can't base rulings on any foreign law or legal system that would not grant the parties the same rights guaranteed by state and U.S. constitutions.  Article VI of the US constitution says ”  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”


If the proponents of the Kansas law and similar ones are not careful it will come back to bite them on the behind.  The groups pushing  the laws also  were  pushing posting the
Ten Commandments  which is of another Middle eastern culture origin, Judaism 





 


It is for the people of Kansas to decide if laws affecting them and their state are silly and a waste of time. I.m betting they are mostly OK with what their legislature has done.


 


When the US makes a treaty recognizing sharia law, then maybe it will set up a court battle. Until then,it is the right of states to decide on laws that do not conflict with federal laws.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:08PM #55
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 12, 2012 -- 8:51PM, christzen wrote:


Jun 12, 2012 -- 8:15PM, Fodaoson wrote:


These kind of law  are just silly and a waste of legislative time and effort.  The new law, taking effect July 1,  says courts, administrative agencies or state tribunals can't base rulings on any foreign law or legal system that would not grant the parties the same rights guaranteed by state and U.S. constitutions.  Article VI of the US constitution says ”  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”


If the proponents of the Kansas law and similar ones are not careful it will come back to bite them on the behind.  The groups pushing  the laws also  were  pushing posting the
Ten Commandments  which is of another Middle eastern culture origin, Judaism 





 


It is for the people of Kansas to decide if laws affecting them and their state are silly and a waste of time. I.m betting they are mostly OK with what their legislature has done.


 


When the US makes a treaty recognizing sharia law, then maybe it will set up a court battle. Until then,it is the right of states to decide on laws that do not conflict with federal laws.





Well, being all for freedom myself, I guess I can't raise an argument, if the people and Legislature of Kansas want to make xenophobic jackholes of themselves.


But, I can point and laugh.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:27PM #56
Erey
Posts: 21,730

Jun 12, 2012 -- 7:27PM, christzen wrote:


Jun 12, 2012 -- 6:05PM, Erey wrote:


  My biggest disapointment is not with the regular people who join the anti-sharia bandwagon.  But rather the typically much more educated legislators who seize the situation to enflame the constituents and make a bit of political hay.  There is no excuse for them to be uneducated on the subject .




 


I'm not exactly sure why it should be the responsibility of a Kansas legislator, or any other politician for that matter, to become educated on Sharia law.


 


I'm also not sure what all the hullaballo is about with this law. It bascally says all people ,including Muslims, will be treated the same as any other American before the law.  There is nothing at all discriminatory about treating Muslms they same as everyone else, and saying they cannot appeal to Sharia law in Kansas courts.


 



 




I think you might find the link I posted a few posts down of interest in regards to what Sharia law really will or wont do here.  This is probably not the thread but I am curious why it is needed at all here.  Basically,  it does not superseed American law.  Normally what you are talking about are issues around marriage, divorce and child custody/rearing.  Also, both parties regardless of both being Muslim will have to agree to go down the Sharia route to settle disputes. 


If a muslim couple gets divorced for example they might prefer to go adhere to the recomendations of Sharia court as to how to divide property, share custody or what obligations does one spouse have to the other after the divorce.    These are the same kinds of issues most divorcing couples experience in the US.  Sharia is somewhat open to interpretation but this is addressed within it. 


There are other religious groups in the US that have similar set ups, certain jewish groups, some native american groups, etc.     Basically, everyone is due the same protection of the US law but how the particulars are intepreted is often shaped by culture and religion.  When two people want to handle their civil affairs in what they feel is a Islamicly correct way they will go to a sharia court or maybe just agree to adhere to the suggestions of a sharia scholar. 


As you know there is often a big disparity in how a judge might rule on a divorce here in the US.  This depends on biases of the judge, what the two parties are asking for, what they suggest, a third party like a adlightim might recommend, the needs of the child, the details around the divorce ( was there abuse, was their infidelity).  Each divorce has almost individual outcomes.  So when you consider it in civil issues such as divorce being able to elect a religious parameter is not outrageous. 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:35PM #57
farragut
Posts: 4,481

" So when you consider it in civil issues such as divorce being able to elect a religious parameter is not outrageous.  "


 


That's all well and good, but every American citizen deserves the full protection of American constitutional law.  sharia be damned.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 9:54PM #58
christzen
Posts: 8,781

Jun 12, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 12, 2012 -- 7:27PM, christzen wrote:


Jun 12, 2012 -- 6:05PM, Erey wrote:


  My biggest disapointment is not with the regular people who join the anti-sharia bandwagon.  But rather the typically much more educated legislators who seize the situation to enflame the constituents and make a bit of political hay.  There is no excuse for them to be uneducated on the subject .




 


I'm not exactly sure why it should be the responsibility of a Kansas legislator, or any other politician for that matter, to become educated on Sharia law.


 


I'm also not sure what all the hullaballo is about with this law. It bascally says all people ,including Muslims, will be treated the same as any other American before the law.  There is nothing at all discriminatory about treating Muslms they same as everyone else, and saying they cannot appeal to Sharia law in Kansas courts.


 



 




I think you might find the link I posted a few posts down of interest in regards to what Sharia law really will or wont do here.  This is probably not the thread but I am curious why it is needed at all here.  Basically,  it does not superseed American law.  Normally what you are talking about are issues around marriage, divorce and child custody/rearing.  Also, both parties regardless of both being Muslim will have to agree to go down the Sharia route to settle disputes. 


If a muslim couple gets divorced for example they might prefer to go adhere to the recomendations of Sharia court as to how to divide property, share custody or what obligations does one spouse have to the other after the divorce.    These are the same kinds of issues most divorcing couples experience in the US.  Sharia is somewhat open to interpretation but this is addressed within it. 


There are other religious groups in the US that have similar set ups, certain jewish groups, some native american groups, etc.     Basically, everyone is due the same protection of the US law but how the particulars are intepreted is often shaped by culture and religion.  When two people want to handle their civil affairs in what they feel is a Islamicly correct way they will go to a sharia court or maybe just agree to adhere to the suggestions of a sharia scholar. 


As you know there is often a big disparity in how a judge might rule on a divorce here in the US.  This depends on biases of the judge, what the two parties are asking for, what they suggest, a third party like a adlightim might recommend, the needs of the child, the details around the divorce ( was there abuse, was their infidelity).  Each divorce has almost individual outcomes.  So when you consider it in civil issues such as divorce being able to elect a religious parameter is not outrageous. 




 


Divorce is one case where sharia law mght come into play. But since sharia law typically gives custody of children to the man, while in normal situations courts usuallly give custody to the woman, this discriminates against non Muslim men.


 


Another example would be Muslim women wanting to have their DL picture taken with a burqa on, or refusing to remove the burqa for ID purposes when stopped by a police officer.


 


Once again, the Kansas law says that Muslims and others get treated exactly the same as the rest of America. It is laughable to consider this discrimination.


 




 

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 10:11PM #59
christzen
Posts: 8,781

Jun 12, 2012 -- 9:08PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



Well, being all for freedom myself, I guess I can't raise an argument, if the people and Legislature of Kansas want to make xenophobic jackholes of themselves.


But, I can point and laugh.




 


If you want to laugh at a state simply saying to Muslims, "you won't get special legal rights here", then fine, laugh. I seriously doubt if any Kansas folks give a hoot that you are laughing at them for telling Muslims they will get treated the same as everyone else.


 


And I think  it is a stretch of epic proportions to consider people to be xenophobic jackholes for saying that Muslims get treated equal with everyone else. But whatever.


"You Muslims come here to Kansas and see how it goes for ya. We're gonna see you get treated just like everyone else. SO THERE! How do ya like that,huh?"


 


Geez.

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5 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 7:08AM #60
BDboy
Posts: 8,220

Jun 12, 2012 -- 6:05PM, Erey wrote:


 


I dont' think I am with you on the martian analogy or the responsibilities of non maritians. 


But Sharia is a damaged word.  Most americans know at least superficialy some muslims and they can't imagine the muslims they know actually striving to practise sharia.  They seem like such nice people!


To be perfectly honest, I think it might have been a couple of years ago I remember learning that it is legal to have sharia rulings in the UK.  My head about popped off!  How could the UK be so craven and stupidly PC was just beyond me.  It was a sign of how far the UK had fallen.  Until I was educated by some people here on what that really meant and what that did not mean.  I live in a very international area and work with all kinds of people including muslims and my gut reaction was "hell no!".  Now I am better educated on the subject and I no longer feel that way. 


But alot of people are not and we are going to have to push past the initial reaction of you have got to be joking banning sharia in the US is a nobrainer.    My biggest disapointment is not with the regular people who join the anti-sharia bandwagon.  But rather the typically much more educated legislators who seize the situation to enflame the constituents and make a bit of political hay.  There is no excuse for them to be uneducated on the subject .




 


>>>>>> Exactly Erey. A little know of what "Sharia" really means can remove misconceptions about it. 


I am glad to hear now you have better understanding of the topic.


Yes, politicians need money to run for the office and need more money to stay in it. So they are influenced by media and lobby groups who lobby for various causes.  


Have you noticed most the states passing this "Anti-Sharia" laws do not have many Muslims in it? Strange, isn't it?  ;-)


Click on the link below for a good article from Southern Poverty Law center



The Anti-Muslim Inner Circle


By Robert Steinback
Illustration by Bri Hermanson




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