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Locked: The Islamophobia Industry Strikes in Kansas
2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:28PM #91
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:35PM #92
LeahOne
Posts: 16,396

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:04PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:34AM, TemplarS wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:06AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 




Does not equate to Jews-- good.


It is partly a matter of realpolitik: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Israel opposed the Arabs back in the day when the Arabs were backed and armed by the Soviets.  Nowadays, Israel opposes what is seen as fundamentalist Islam (Iraq, Hezbollah, Hamas).


And, for some, a sort of Christian fundamentalist literalism which (based on one quite tentative interpretation of Revelation) certain things involving Jerusalem must happen before the second coming.


But that does not mean these people love Jews.




Oh, there's a good job done of pretending to love Jews/Irsael. Just watch Fox -- they are constantly slobbering over Jews and Israel.


However, you could be correct. If the "A-rabs and Mooslims" weren't there to fear and hate, then many of those folks would probably go right back to the Jewish money-grabber, Christ-killer stereotypes.




Mouse, we Jews aren't being fooled by the slobbering.  We understand most of 'em only love us for the 'supporting role' they expect us to play in their 'Revelation' scenario.... 




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:42PM #93
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 12:57PM #94
BDboy
Posts: 5,818

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:34AM, TemplarS wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:06AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


So yes, according to Joe Six Pack conservative USA, Israel -- good, A-rabs -- bad. 




Does not equate to Jews-- good.


It is partly a matter of realpolitik: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Israel opposed the Arabs back in the day when the Arabs were backed and armed by the Soviets.  Nowadays, Israel opposes what is seen as fundamentalist Islam (Iraq, Hezbollah, Hamas).


And, for some, a sort of Christian fundamentalist literalism which (based on one quite tentative interpretation of Revelation) certain things involving Jerusalem must happen before the second coming.


But that does not mean these people love Jews.






>>>>>>>> Good point. The only part need to be added that, during 80's the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan worked as a team to give birth to a "New Violent fanatical ideology" ( I do not call it fundamentaloish Islam--because Islam is against it FUNDAMENTALLY!).


Muslims also have faith in second coming of Jesus but we think God is strong enough to make necessary changes to make it happen. God does not depend on any one person or one nation to do His work. He is the creator of the universe and all living in it, so if He wishes Jesus to return, it will happen with a blink of an eye!!


I agree with you that, some of the fanatical zionist Christians are not necessarily have the best interest of the Jewish people. Just listen to them talking about "Rapture" and it will scare the *rap out of any Jew...


Until the re-creation of modern day Israel, Muslims and Jews lived in "Realive" peace for centuries. it is hard for us to imagine today but history says it was good times for both communities. Sure, it was not perfect but compare to how Jews were treated in the rest of the world, it was near perfect for sure.


Lastly, the word "Fundamentalist" is seen/perceived as a "Bad thing" when we discuss Christianity. It would be helpful to note, among most Muslims and scholars of Islam, a fundamentalist is seen in a positive light. As per Islamic idea, it is a complete code of life. From running a country to running a household has been discussed in Islam. So Muslims feel it is "Fundamentally" sound.


Since the 80's there was a movement of fanatics but as the Arab spring shown us, fanatics do not have much influence among young Muslims and democracy is very desirable to young Arabs of 21st century.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 1:25PM #95
BDboy
Posts: 5,818

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims. 



 


>>>>>>>>> Nope. I known and worked with plenty of "Americans" and average Americans do not have any desire to "Hate Muslims". Americans are like most people of the world and known to be friendly.


However the issue is about CERTAIN groups of people, who have dedicated money, organizations ( Clarion fund for example) etc in hate mongering against Muslims.


 


The Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate




 


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 



 


>>>>>>>> I agree Muslims are doing well in America but it ain't "Unlimited advancement" for them. They are limited time to time and hate filled propaganda takes a toll time to time.


Having said that, ONLY in America you can expect to get as far. Yes Muslims are far more educated than most groups (Probably only after Jews and Indians as a community) but America has been good so far to them. Few country can match such opportunities that America provided.


American Muslims have some issue with civil rights and hate mongering (That we are discussing) but other than that, it has been good so far.


 


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans



>>>>>>>> yes, good point Erey. :-)


Some Americans do like to "Get stoned and screw" and some Muslims do abuse their women. But generalizing would be unfair to the whole communities.


 


 


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




 


>>>>>>>>> Muslims are more comfortable leaving "Sex lives" in their respective bed rooms. So no comments.   Wink


Take care.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 2:26PM #96
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




Erey,


I'm not meaning to paint things with too broad a brush -- sorry if I did. 


I get very frustrated trying to talk about Islam in my community. But then again, I live in an isolated, very White, very politically conservative, very Christian area. 


I might "blend in" so to speak -- because I'm white, I like to hunt, I drive a pickup with a dog in the back and I wear boots, jeans and a ballcap like lots of folks 'round here.


But, by virtue of being Baha'i, I'm also an odball too. I can only imagine what it would be like for a traditional Muslim or Jew around here.


I'm merely saying, there might be a point at which a devout Muslim might consider it futile to try speaking out.


Some elements of Islamic culture might very well be fundamentally incompatible with mainstream Western culture. Therefore, it might get to a point, where there's really nothing left to say.


That's not really a bad thing, nor do I think it makes in impossible for Muslims to live and thrive here. 


In a way, "mainstream" is a relative term anyway. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 2:50PM #97
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




Erey,


I'm not meaning to paint things with too broad a brush -- sorry if I did. 


I get very frustrated trying to talk about Islam in my community. But then again, I live in an isolated, very White, very politically conservative, very Christian area. 


I might "blend in" so to speak -- because I'm white, I like to hunt, I drive a pickup with a dog in the back and I wear boots, jeans and a ballcap like lots of folks 'round here.


But, by virtue of being Baha'i, I'm also an odball too. I can only imagine what it would be like for a traditional Muslim or Jew around here.


I'm merely saying, there might be a point at which a devout Muslim might consider it futile to try speaking out.


Some elements of Islamic culture might very well be fundamentally incompatible with mainstream Western culture. Therefore, it might get to a point, where there's really nothing left to say.


That's not really a bad thing, nor do I think it makes in impossible for Muslims to live and thrive here. 


In a way, "mainstream" is a relative term anyway. 





Bear with me, I am not trying to be too personal but just trying to see if you can recognize yourself in what I am about to say.  We have this tendancy to for lack of a better term see ourselves as more sophisticated and enlightened than those around us.  You say you are concerned for a jew or muslim in your community?  Well I am sure it would be an oddity but perhaps you should have a little faith in your neighboors?  They tolerate you don't they?  I am sure there are some practicalities to hunting and truck driving in your area that would cross religious and cultural lines.  I am sure your typicall jew on moving to your community is not going to think a luxury sedan is the most practical and will most likely go for the pickup or 4 wheel drive SUV. 


I am remembering my friend who is a self-described liberal.  She lives across the street from a gay couple parenting young children.  One of the fathers is also a specialized oncologist. 


Her cousin from rural Louisiana needed to see the neighboor/oncologist because he came down with one of the diseases he specializes in.  I met this cousin, nice guy and a bit of a bubba.  He stayed with her while he was undergoing treatment.    My friend was fretting and wondering what might happen when her cousin realized that his oncologist lived right across the street and is a gay man.  Nothing is what happened, no shock or smart-ass remarks, just some mild surprise. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 3:02PM #98
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:50PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




Erey,


I'm not meaning to paint things with too broad a brush -- sorry if I did. 


I get very frustrated trying to talk about Islam in my community. But then again, I live in an isolated, very White, very politically conservative, very Christian area. 


I might "blend in" so to speak -- because I'm white, I like to hunt, I drive a pickup with a dog in the back and I wear boots, jeans and a ballcap like lots of folks 'round here.


But, by virtue of being Baha'i, I'm also an odball too. I can only imagine what it would be like for a traditional Muslim or Jew around here.


I'm merely saying, there might be a point at which a devout Muslim might consider it futile to try speaking out.


Some elements of Islamic culture might very well be fundamentally incompatible with mainstream Western culture. Therefore, it might get to a point, where there's really nothing left to say.


That's not really a bad thing, nor do I think it makes in impossible for Muslims to live and thrive here. 


In a way, "mainstream" is a relative term anyway. 





Bear with me, I am not trying to be too personal but just trying to see if you can recognize yourself in what I am about to say.  We have this tendancy to for lack of a better term see ourselves as more sophisticated and enlightened than those around us.  You say you are concerned for a jew or muslim in your community?  Well I am sure it would be an oddity but perhaps you should have a little faith in your neighboors?  They tolerate you don't they?  I am sure there are some practicalities to hunting and truck driving in your area that would cross religious and cultural lines.  I am sure your typicall jew on moving to your community is not going to think a luxury sedan is the most practical and will most likely go for the pickup or 4 wheel drive SUV. 


I am remembering my friend who is a self-described liberal.  She lives across the street from a gay couple parenting young children.  One of the fathers is also a specialized oncologist. 


Her cousin from rural Louisiana needed to see the neighboor/oncologist because he came down with one of the diseases he specializes in.  I met this cousin, nice guy and a bit of a bubba.  He stayed with her while he was undergoing treatment.    My friend was fretting and wondering what might happen when her cousin realized that his oncologist lived right across the street and is a gay man.  Nothing is what happened, no shock or smart-ass remarks, just some mild surprise. 




I see what you're saying, and thank you for prompting some introspection.


Not to stereotype, again. But there is a tendancy in liberal-leaning thought to assume anything to the right of, or more "traditional" than it, is going to be steeped in hatred, fear, ignorance, prejudice and a complete inability to handle anything different. 


We see that on these boards all the time, no? The biggest boogeyman here is a White, Christian, Republican male. 


I guess that's my problem with the "progressive" mindset. It assumes that anybody outside the fold is a knuckle-dragging trogdolyte, just looking for somebody/something to hate. Again, we see that constantly on these boards.


But then again, I was projecting a bit of that myself, in my assumptions about my neighbors here in Wyoming, eh?


You're correct -- in general, people are far more tolerant than some want to give them credit for.


Strident ideologies don't reflect that. For example, I think strident right-wing ideology is apt to ignorance and fear. Strident left ideology is apt to arrogance and hysteria.


But, people are not ideologies, for the most part. For the most part, they are more thoughtful than they get credit for. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 3:12PM #99
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Jun 15, 2012 -- 3:02PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:50PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




Erey,


I'm not meaning to paint things with too broad a brush -- sorry if I did. 


I get very frustrated trying to talk about Islam in my community. But then again, I live in an isolated, very White, very politically conservative, very Christian area. 


I might "blend in" so to speak -- because I'm white, I like to hunt, I drive a pickup with a dog in the back and I wear boots, jeans and a ballcap like lots of folks 'round here.


But, by virtue of being Baha'i, I'm also an odball too. I can only imagine what it would be like for a traditional Muslim or Jew around here.


I'm merely saying, there might be a point at which a devout Muslim might consider it futile to try speaking out.


Some elements of Islamic culture might very well be fundamentally incompatible with mainstream Western culture. Therefore, it might get to a point, where there's really nothing left to say.


That's not really a bad thing, nor do I think it makes in impossible for Muslims to live and thrive here. 


In a way, "mainstream" is a relative term anyway. 





Bear with me, I am not trying to be too personal but just trying to see if you can recognize yourself in what I am about to say.  We have this tendancy to for lack of a better term see ourselves as more sophisticated and enlightened than those around us.  You say you are concerned for a jew or muslim in your community?  Well I am sure it would be an oddity but perhaps you should have a little faith in your neighboors?  They tolerate you don't they?  I am sure there are some practicalities to hunting and truck driving in your area that would cross religious and cultural lines.  I am sure your typicall jew on moving to your community is not going to think a luxury sedan is the most practical and will most likely go for the pickup or 4 wheel drive SUV. 


I am remembering my friend who is a self-described liberal.  She lives across the street from a gay couple parenting young children.  One of the fathers is also a specialized oncologist. 


Her cousin from rural Louisiana needed to see the neighboor/oncologist because he came down with one of the diseases he specializes in.  I met this cousin, nice guy and a bit of a bubba.  He stayed with her while he was undergoing treatment.    My friend was fretting and wondering what might happen when her cousin realized that his oncologist lived right across the street and is a gay man.  Nothing is what happened, no shock or smart-ass remarks, just some mild surprise. 




I see what you're saying, and thank you for prompting some introspection.


Not to stereotype, again. But there is a tendancy in liberal-leaning thought to assume anything to the right of, or more "traditional" than it, is going to be steeped in hatred, fear, ignorance, prejudice and a complete inability to handle anything different. 


We see that on these boards all the time, no? The biggest boogeyman here is a White, Christian, Republican male. 


I guess that's my problem with the "progressive" mindset. It assumes that anybody outside the fold is a knuckle-dragging trogdolyte, just looking for somebody/something to hate. Again, we see that constantly on these boards.


But then again, I was projecting a bit of that myself, in my assumptions about my neighbors here in Wyoming, eh?


You're correct -- in general, people are far more tolerant than some want to give them credit for.


Strident ideologies don't reflect that. For example, I think strident right-wing ideology is apt to ignorance and fear. Strident left ideology is apt to arrogance and hysteria.


But, people are not ideologies, for the most part. For the most part, they are more thoughtful than they get credit for. 





Have a great day, it was fun chatting

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 4:27PM #100
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 15, 2012 -- 3:12PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 3:02PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:50PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 2:26PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:42PM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Erey,


I don't deny Americans might have reason to have an impression of Sharia that might creep them out. 


I was merely trying to point out, many Muslims might not feel particularly motivated to try giving a positive impression of Islam -- or to speak out against terrorist fanatics -- because they know they're speaking to an audience that really doesn't give a ripe crap anyway, and is probably going to remain hostile, no matter what they say. 


Muslim life tends toward being very pious. Most Americans, of all stripes, don't much care for anything they might think could disrupt a hedonistic good old time. Americans tend toward materialism and pleasure seeking. 


America might have been founded on puritanism to a degree. But getting wasted and getting laid is as American as anything... LOL!





As far as I am concerned, embracing the american community life is about all the speaking out I think is necessary on behalf of american muslims.  Leave the dedicated speaking out to the activists.  Being a good neighboor, good friend, contribute to your kids schools and othe community activities are IMO much more effective than writing speeches and joining marches. 


I take issue with this idea that most americans just want to hate muslims.  Muslims do very well here in America as a group.  They have unlimited advancement within our corporations, often have prestigeious professional careers, tend to live in nice affluent communities.  In addition have an easy time of making friends.  What more should our society give them?    Instead of thinking how terrible the stupid old americans are in retrospect considering what has happened in the not so distant past I would say americans are shown to be compared to europe and asia very inclusive.  Much more inclusive than I imagine your typicall immigrant to an arab country might expect to be treated.  Yes you can find bad stories but these bad stories don't show the picture of american muslims in reality being by and large more prosperous than the general american population. 


I also take issue with this unnecessary and untrue comment that americans just want to get stoned and screw.  That is untrue as a general comment. Mytmouse, would you tolerate someone making a generalization that muslims just want to abuse their women?  You wouldnt.  Then why make such unflattering and UNTRUE generalizations about Americans. 


Look around, our society is pretty hard-working.  In addition our rates of addiction are pretty low compared to the rest of the west.  And our sex lives if anything are neglected and can use a boost. 




Erey,


I'm not meaning to paint things with too broad a brush -- sorry if I did. 


I get very frustrated trying to talk about Islam in my community. But then again, I live in an isolated, very White, very politically conservative, very Christian area. 


I might "blend in" so to speak -- because I'm white, I like to hunt, I drive a pickup with a dog in the back and I wear boots, jeans and a ballcap like lots of folks 'round here.


But, by virtue of being Baha'i, I'm also an odball too. I can only imagine what it would be like for a traditional Muslim or Jew around here.


I'm merely saying, there might be a point at which a devout Muslim might consider it futile to try speaking out.


Some elements of Islamic culture might very well be fundamentally incompatible with mainstream Western culture. Therefore, it might get to a point, where there's really nothing left to say.


That's not really a bad thing, nor do I think it makes in impossible for Muslims to live and thrive here. 


In a way, "mainstream" is a relative term anyway. 





Bear with me, I am not trying to be too personal but just trying to see if you can recognize yourself in what I am about to say.  We have this tendancy to for lack of a better term see ourselves as more sophisticated and enlightened than those around us.  You say you are concerned for a jew or muslim in your community?  Well I am sure it would be an oddity but perhaps you should have a little faith in your neighboors?  They tolerate you don't they?  I am sure there are some practicalities to hunting and truck driving in your area that would cross religious and cultural lines.  I am sure your typicall jew on moving to your community is not going to think a luxury sedan is the most practical and will most likely go for the pickup or 4 wheel drive SUV. 


I am remembering my friend who is a self-described liberal.  She lives across the street from a gay couple parenting young children.  One of the fathers is also a specialized oncologist. 


Her cousin from rural Louisiana needed to see the neighboor/oncologist because he came down with one of the diseases he specializes in.  I met this cousin, nice guy and a bit of a bubba.  He stayed with her while he was undergoing treatment.    My friend was fretting and wondering what might happen when her cousin realized that his oncologist lived right across the street and is a gay man.  Nothing is what happened, no shock or smart-ass remarks, just some mild surprise. 




I see what you're saying, and thank you for prompting some introspection.


Not to stereotype, again. But there is a tendancy in liberal-leaning thought to assume anything to the right of, or more "traditional" than it, is going to be steeped in hatred, fear, ignorance, prejudice and a complete inability to handle anything different. 


We see that on these boards all the time, no? The biggest boogeyman here is a White, Christian, Republican male. 


I guess that's my problem with the "progressive" mindset. It assumes that anybody outside the fold is a knuckle-dragging trogdolyte, just looking for somebody/something to hate. Again, we see that constantly on these boards.


But then again, I was projecting a bit of that myself, in my assumptions about my neighbors here in Wyoming, eh?


You're correct -- in general, people are far more tolerant than some want to give them credit for.


Strident ideologies don't reflect that. For example, I think strident right-wing ideology is apt to ignorance and fear. Strident left ideology is apt to arrogance and hysteria.


But, people are not ideologies, for the most part. For the most part, they are more thoughtful than they get credit for. 





Have a great day, it was fun chatting




You too. 

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