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Locked: The Islamophobia Industry Strikes in Kansas
2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 1:26PM #41
TemplarS
Posts: 6,721

Keeping things in perspective.  This is hardy a new or unique phenomenon in the US.


America has always been a nation of immigrants.  Various ethnic and religious groups have always been victims of bigotry and at times violence.  Once it was Jews, or Poles, or Italians, or Catholics, or Chinese (you can Google the anti-Irish riots of Phisdelphia, or the anti-Italian riots of New Orleans). Or even homegrown groups such as the Mormons.  Some prejudice against some of those groups is undeniably with us still.  But mostly today it is Muslims (and, in other areas,  Mexicans). On the whole,  I do not think things now are any worse than they were in, say, the mid 1800s.


Islam is an easy current target to peddle because of Al Qaeda and 9-11, Iran and the mullahs, the mess in Syria and such places, publicity about various odious cultural practices in places like Pakistan. These things are on everybody's news every day; easy ammunition for those spreading fear and hate.  This is the irony: today when we are all connected to each other as never before by things like the web, these tools are used more than ever before to spread hate.


There is probably no simple short-term answer. There never is, to willful ignorance. 


It is no comfort for those impacted today, and no excuse for the rest of us to remain silent- but this will pass, as it has mostly passed for those other groups. (I'm ignoring the situation of African-Americans, which seems to be an entirely different sort of phenomenon.


What will cause it to pass is personal experience. I myself am fortunate, but maybe unusual as of yet.  I know many Muslims (and people from other groups) through my job. Stereotypes and irrational fears vanish when you get to know people; even if you are at first forced to get to know them (I think WWII was a great cause of breaking down many of those earlier barriers- when you're fighting for your life alongside a bunch of other men, background matters little).

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 2:04PM #42
rabello
Posts: 20,954

Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:32PM, BDboy wrote:


Can we have ONE little thread discussing an real problem for American Muslims for a change?




I would hope so, but as we have already seen, probably not.  Too much derailment with western interpretations of what some westerner says in in the Qur'an, with cherrypicked quotes.


Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:32PM, BDboy wrote:


If some of the "Islam haters" happen to be Jewish, and zionists, I do not think you can blame Muslims for that!!

Maybe we can discuss why are SOME Jews are spreading hate against ALL Muslims (We are not talking about people who commit violence but 1.7 billion followers of Islam)?


Appreciate everyone's help in keeping our discussion on the topic.




Americans are in a bad mood these days. Started with Reagan.  All reaction and no thought.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 2:13PM #43
rabello
Posts: 20,954

I agree, dot, this is frightening...and sad for America


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:24PM, DotNotInOz wrote:


Of greater concern to me is the fact that a few less than half the U.S. states have enacted similar laws. That says something very frightening about how organized and influential fringe groups are currently. I think we ought to worry more about their ability to get such laws passed than about who's paranoid about Islam.


From the OP article:  Like other similar bills in 20 states, including recently enacted laws in Arizona, Louisiana and Tennessee, the blueprint for the controversial Kansas legislation comes from a familiar and influential source: a growing right-wing network of anti-Muslim fear mongers. They are the Islamophobia industry and laws such as this are hallmark achievements in their quest to frighten the American population about a minority group they view with great suspicion and scorn.





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 2:29PM #44
TemplarS
Posts: 6,721

Jun 12, 2012 -- 12:32PM, BDboy wrote:


 Rather than a discussion about Islamophobia in America. It is a very serious issue to me.


Since the hate mongers are getting a lot of "Air time" and rational people are not. Islam is being defined by people who do not know much about Islam!!






The hate-mongers always have and always will get air time.


It is unfair, it is not balanced, and it will always be so.


In terms of damage it is disproportionate. All it takes is a handful of people to listen to these hate-mongers. The extremists will always be able to do damage disproportionate to their numbers.  A dozen and a half of extremists with boxcutters can bring down 4 airplanes and 2 skyscrapers.  One extremist with a couple of guns can wipeout an island of campers in Norway.  A couple of extremists with some ANFO and a truck can destroy a building and kill a few hundred people in Oklahoma. And so on.  In our time, in a population where 99% are good people, the other 1% can do a lot of harm.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 3:05PM #45
Erey
Posts: 18,594

The idea of sharia anything in the US sounds outrageous, really to be avoided at all costs.  This is the reality that needs to be addressed, what does sharia mean.  Does it mean chopping off hands and honor killing your sister? 


The fact is most americans, that probably includes a fair percentage of secular-muslim americans  really don't have a positive view of sharia.  If you ask your everyday 2nd generation muslim named Wally (instead of Walid) if they like the idea of sharia they are going to say "Hell No!"  This is not why my parents/grandparents left Pakistan or Egypt as the case might be. 


The fact that Sharia includes alot of really rather boring, humdrum rules and regulations for civil disputes really never makes it into public conciousness.  Heck, you ask a fair amount of modern  muslims in Pakistan or Egypt if they think sharia is a good idea and you will probably get a Hell No!


The fact is Sharia has a bad rap, which is probably for the most part unfair, not just here in the US and not just in the Red States and truly not even just in the non-muslim world. 


So how do we provide fairness?  I am unsure myself.  I certainly don't think sharia needs to be outlawed or ruled against.   What does sharia do for muslims living in the US that they can't get from normal civil law?  What is important about it here in the US? 


My understanding is that it mostly emcompasses issues around marriage and divorce here in the US.  OK so they can't make Islamic divorce/marriage decisisons without shaira (just asking).  Why not?  i am truly curious about that and would not mind a short education on the subject. 


 


We need to show the boring side of sharia instead of the sensationalist side.


 


Let's start with what it is and why it is important and go from there. 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 3:36PM #46
Erey
Posts: 18,594

The problem in my estimation is not so much that people are stupid or bigoted or mean (although people are all of these things).  But rather that Sharia is so misunderstood.  Sharia has a PR problem.  You can't deal with people's Islamaphobia around Sharia law in the US without also dealing with the misunderstandings toward what sharia is and is not and what people are advocating in regards to sharia law here in the US> 


 


pressandguide.com/articles/2012/02/13/ne...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:10PM #47
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Browbeaten, you seem to have answered your own question.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:11PM #48
BDboy
Posts: 5,449

Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


The idea of sharia anything in the US sounds outrageous, really to be avoided at all costs.  This is the reality that needs to be addressed, what does sharia mean.  Does it mean chopping off hands and honor killing your sister? 



 


>>>>>>>> Before you get to chose if you want it or "Avoid it", you should know NO Muslim organizations ( I know some leaders in the largest ones) even proposed it!!


This is thedisturbing part. WHY are we even discussing it if NO one (At least with any kind of membership) ever proposed it? Specifically NO ONE ever wanted to replace existing laws.


If as a Muslim, I do not eat pork (As per Sharia), it does not impact anyone but me. Every American Muslim have that much "Freedom" guranteed by the constitution. As far as any law that may impact any communities, I have not heard anyone discussing it.


 


Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


The fact is most americans, that probably includes a fair percentage of secular-muslim americans  really don't have a positive view of sharia.  If you ask your everyday 2nd generation muslim named Wally (instead of Walid) if they like the idea of sharia they are going to say "Hell No!"  This is not why my parents/grandparents left Pakistan or Egypt as the case might be. 



 


>>>>>>>> Since birth Pakistan had British common law (Like the US) as foundation of their court system. I do not know of any hand chopping in Pakistan to speak of. Same goes to Egypt. Which shows the level of ignorance about Sharia.


In fact most laws in the books are very compatible with Sharia, so most Muslims do not see any reason to replace them. Again WHY are we even discussing it while Muslims are not demanding it? It seems like a campaign to mislead people (Like the Iraq war) and blame Muslims for it.


Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


The fact that Sharia includes alot of really rather boring, humdrum rules and regulations for civil disputes really never makes it into public conciousness.  Heck, you ask a fair amount of modern  muslims in Pakistan or Egypt if they think sharia is a good idea and you will probably get a Hell No!



 


>>>>>>> If you ask me, I would say Sharia is NOT the major problem in Egypt or Pakistan. Rather how laws are being implimented (Without due process) is a major concern.


Most countries with Muslim majority population practice Sharia in civil matters. They do not practice Sharia for criminal matters. Even though as long you follow 'Due process" [ Which is to make sure we are blaimg the right person and giving that person a chance to defend himself/herself] it works perfectly. Saudi Arabia practice Sharia and have one of the lowest crime rates in the world!!


 


Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


The fact is Sharia has a bad rap, which is probably for the most part unfair, not just here in the US and not just in the Red States and truly not even just in the non-muslim world. 



>>>>>>> That and how media dramatize Sharia. Like most laws if you apply it fairly, it is good. For example, African-Americans did not get 'Fair" treatment in cort systems for the longest time, so albeit American judicial system works perfectly for most of us, it did not serve well for African-Americans in the past. Most of them are not fan of it.


All depends how laws are applied and how fair it is to all people. The noble Qur'an orders Muslims to be fair with everyone including enemies. [ Source: Al Qur'an 5:8]


Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


So how do we provide fairness?  I am unsure myself.  I certainly don't think sharia needs to be outlawed or ruled against.   What does sharia do for muslims living in the US that they can't get from normal civil law?  What is important about it here in the US? 



>>>>>>> Seems like the state most "Worried" about Sharia law are the place with very little Muslim population. So discussing it will only serve bigots as it does not even apply to the US.


 


Jun 12, 2012 -- 3:05PM, Erey wrote:


My understanding is that it mostly emcompasses issues around marriage and divorce here in the US.  OK so they can't make Islamic divorce/marriage decisisons without shaira (just asking).  Why not?  i am truly curious about that and would not mind a short education on the subject. 


 


We need to show the boring side of sharia instead of the sensationalist side.


 


Let's start with what it is and why it is important and go from there. 


 



 


>>>>>>>>> It may shock you but as per Islam marriage is a contract and women can add conditions to it as per her wishes before she marries anyone. Including initiating divorce if She is not physically satisfied (All in 1400 year old Sharia system!). But you are not likly to see that in CNN or Fox anytime soon.


As I said, all of you are welcome to DI forum to carry this discussion forward there. It would be "Proper" for me to give you more details for Sharia laws.


BUT the important point in our current discussion is WHY so many states are talking against Sharia while no Muslims are trying to impliment Sharia in the first place. Specifically NO ONE is trying to replace ANY current laws. So why is there such a great need to pass laws against Sharia? It is 21st century and do we really need to go through the cycle Irish, Itilians, Jews and afro-Americans went through before Muslims are considered "Kosher" in America?


Even right after 9-11, I did not see such hatered against Muslims. It is very disturbing trend.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 4:53PM #49
Erey
Posts: 18,594

 


 


>>>>>>>>> It may shock you but as per Islam marriage is a contract and women can add conditions to it as per her wishes before she marries anyone. Including initiating divorce if She is not physically satisfied (All in 1400 year old Sharia system!). But you are not likly to see that in CNN or Fox anytime soon.


As I said, all of you are welcome to DI forum to carry this discussion forward there. It would be "Proper" for me to give you more details for Sharia laws.


BUT the important point in our current discussion is WHY so many states are talking against Sharia while no Muslims are trying to impliment Sharia in the first place. Specifically NO ONE is trying to replace ANY current laws. So why is there such a great need to pass laws against Sharia? It is 21st century and do we really need to go through the cycle Irish, Itilians, Jews and afro-Americans went through before Muslims are considered "Kosher" in America?


Even right after 9-11, I did not see such hatered against Muslims. It is very disturbing trend.


[/quote]

To be fair BD, before and even after 9/11 I don't recall any discussion ever of Sharia in the US.  This is something that came latter, in more recent years.  For all I know muslims have been quietly practising sharia for years in the US without it being anything that had to be spoken outloud.  What I am saying is recently it has come to some public attention that muslims want to practise Sharia in the US.  Maybe they always have done this but it was not part of conciousness?  The fact is Sharia has a very, very bad PR problem.  That is a fact.  You can't take the standard  image of all that sharia encompasses which is rather horrific and just tell people to "stop being such an Islamaphobe".  That is sort of like saying it is mean and bigoted not to let caniballs kill and eat children.  The PR problem with Sharia cannot be underplayed in this discussion.  That is my point, that is why so many people are automaticaly saying "hell no". 


To them it is not about being anti muslim, to them it is about being anti hand chopping anti-woman killing and the rest.  Sharia has the very worst images of Islam wrapped in that word. 


So I would say is it Islamaphobia?  that would be a lazy and weak conclusion to make.  In Kansas I don't think your typicall person assumes that their neighboors the Abdul's want to run around chopping off hands.  In their mind sharia is for the baddest and meanest Al Quedaesque muslims. 


IS this fair, No.  But this is the reality we have.  If you want peopel to not react in horror when the term "Sharia in the US" is brought up then you need to patiently and persistently educate people on what that means and most importantly what that does not mean. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 5:45PM #50
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,767

Most people are not too mean, too stupid, too racist or anything else.


What most people have is a view of Islam which has been provided by a small (but not that small) group of Muslims who happen to have a particular idea about Islam which in many respects is different from that of the majority of Muslims.Since that view of Islam is antithetical to much (but not all) of the beleifs and practices of a majority of Americans (and other non-Muslims as well) and as that view of Islam calls for physical war to be waged against America etc... there is nothing phobic about being wary of that group.


I am sorry but the only "Islamophobes" I have seen are the ones who are to afraid to criticize the beliefs of the Martians and who are too afraid to stand up for their own form of Islam and its beliefs and practices and who are afraid or unwilling to explain their own view of Islam and how they may differ from that of the Martians. The biggest Islamphobe here is the author of the OP. 


Unless and until the majority of Muslims are willing to state that the Martians are not them and that the aims of the Martians are not theirs the rest of the world not only has the right but has the responsibility to be cautious. 


As I have said before, those of us who are familiar with Islam and its many varieties but are not Muslims are getting sick and tired of trying to explain to the world that the Martians are not normative Muslims when we get zippo help in this regard from normative Muslims.

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