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Locked: The Islamophobia Industry Strikes in Kansas
2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 1:12PM #221
REteach
Posts: 14,178

Jun 28, 2012 -- 8:42PM, TemplarS wrote:


RETeach, must not have been a Catholic or Episcopal church, eh?



Actually the only person who agreed with my daughter at work yesterday was a Catholic priest from Chicago who also supported same sex marriage.  They rejoiced together while the Baptists sat around and cried. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 1:21PM #222
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 29, 2012 -- 1:01PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The “Old Testament “ is not Judaism; the Old testament is a  Christian compilation that includes some redacted Jewish scripture (Torah) and other writings.  The first five books of the Christian Old Testament are translations of the Koine Greek translation of the Torah, the “Bible” of Judaism.


  It is strange that we have a poster claiming that there is no “Christian” law and other who claim that we are a “Christian nation”  with laws based on Christian  teachings and principles. 




The OT laws/concepts made reference to are rooted in Judasim. 


Again, codified social religious law has nothing to do with Christianity. Can somebody give an example of a specific teaching of Christ written into law?  


Because that would be the nearest example we could have. And even then, it would be only an adaptation.  Otherwise, religious law is a Judasim/Islam concept, not a Christian one. 


Socially, The United States of America is a Christian nation. That might be changing somewhat now. But historically, it's been true.


Legally, it's not accurate to call the U.S.A. a Christian nation. Our laws are civil and secular -- not religious -- in nature. 


Furthermore, as I've been asserting, it's an impossiblity to have "Christian nation" in the legal sense. 


First, Christ's teachings had nothing to do with "nation." For example, "Love your enemies" is antethetical to the concept of a nation. Nations tend to war with enemies, not have love-fests. 


Secondly, as I've already pointed out, there were no laws in His religion. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 1:52PM #223
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,043

Christizen:  No, the bill assumes that Sharia and other foreign cultural rules have no place influencing US law. Deal with it.


Kansas is one of those states that want to act as though the bible should be the only textbook, right?


The prudent time to pass laws against things you do not want is always BEFORE they occur.


Isn't that basically writing laws for imaginary problems?  If it hasn't happened, how is it a problem?


browbeaten:  Christianity came with this country.


But it isn't native.  When Kansas only uses concepts from the local Native American nations, lemme know.


Charikleia:  Needless to say, Jewish & Muslim religious communities consider this an infringement of their religious freedom and parental rights. I am curious how this case will unfold in higher courts.


While I want to have sympathy for the circumcision issue, I do lean toward Germany's argument that it isn't so much the ritual as the age of consent that is really the ethical dilemma.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 2:33PM #224
LeahOne
Posts: 16,086

Jun 28, 2012 -- 4:09PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 2:38PM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 11:05AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


What exactly would a "Christian based law" be?


Christianity doesn't really come with a code of laws, as some other religions do. Like Buddhism, Chrisitianty is more of a religion of individual spirituality. It's not really one that included codified social laws -- such as in Judaism or Islam. 


Jesus really gave only one direct commandment -- "Love one another as I have loved you."


So, other than a mandatory Just-like-Jesus-love-fest ordinance, I fail to see how one could have a "Christian law" -- any more than one could have a Buddhist law. 




The Blue Laws that browbeaten referred to earlier is a good example.




Laws that might be written by some who identify as Christians don't count. Most of the "lawful" side of conservative religious American politics comes from the Old Testament -- Judasim. 


I think you are in error:  Jewish religious law very specifically upholds the idea that 'the law of the land' is to take precedence over Jewish religious law EXCEPT in very extreme situations, such as forcing people to sacrifice to idols.


It is a VERY BAD IDEA to suppose that 'Christianity = Judaism-Law Code+Jesus'  - because that 'equasion' makes no sense whatsoever.


Again, specifically, what "laws" could come from the Teachings of Christ? His religion wasn't one of codified laws -- as Judaism and Islam were.


I'm not a Christian, but I seem to recall several passages in the Gospels where Jesus affirms the validity of Jewish religious law and specifically states that he is not intending to overturn it. 


Further, you appear to be ignorant of the teachings of Hillel the Elder who preceeded Jesus by about a century and who taught "Do not do to another that which is hateful to you:  all the rest of Torah is commentary"   ('Torah' here representing the Written AND Oral Teachings, which Christians erroneously refer to as 'Law') 


 


Therefore, again, to me, "Christian law" is an oxymoron. 


'Jewish law' is only for Jews:  'Christian law' in the US has a history of presuming to decide for everyone else as well.  Those 'Blue Laws' didn't pertain to Christian-owned businesses only - which of course is exactly what's wrong with 'em. 


AND of course since 'life begins at conception' is not a specific Christian doctrine a la Nicene Creed - any restrictive law on abortion based on that idea is not nearly so universal as its proponants like to claim.





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 2:49PM #225
LeahOne
Posts: 16,086

Quoth MTM:  "The concept of a codified prohibition against taking the Lord's name comes from Judaism, not Christianity. "


 


MTM - I honestly think you have no idea what the Jewish prohibition means.  This is not to say you are less than intelligent or willfully ignorant - only to note that what Jewish Scripture actually means to Jews is a topic probably never touched upon in any lay Christian's education.  So it's not likely to be found *except* by studying Judaism from Jewish sources (and I do NOT mean those fakes and frauds of 'MJ' and other 'stealth proselytizing' conspiracies!!!)


Since discussing it in detail would be going off-topic, I invite you to take this up on 'DJ' board if you wish....


Now, about your idea that 'Judaism is like Islam' in *having* a codified set of laws, yes.  However - as I've already stated! - the idea that anyone else should be governed by Jewish religious law UNLESS THEY VOLUNTEER TO, is one which to my knowledge does not exist in Judaism and would never be sanctioned by Torah (see Exodus....)


 


 Both Christianity and Islam describe themselves as 'universal' faiths - Judaism does not.  It is simply the faith of the Jews and doesn't see itself as 'the One True TRUTH' or 'the ONLY way to heaven' or 'the best and purest faith'.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:04PM #226
arielg
Posts: 9,115

Both Christianity and Islam describe themselves as 'universal' faiths - Judaism does not.  It is simply the faith of the Jews and doesn't see itself as 'the One True TRUTH' or 'the ONLY way to heaven' or 'the best and purest faith'.


Any true faith is universal, or it is just tribalism. What is true , is true for everyone, not just for a group that agrees on certain things.


 What is the faith of the Jews, if not a way to find and live the Truth?


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:07PM #227
BDboy
Posts: 5,138

Jun 28, 2012 -- 5:47PM, TemplarS wrote:


Jun 28, 2012 -- 4:20PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


So, again, I ask, can you give me a specific example of what "Christian law" would be?






Not only will I do that, I will here give you but one example of a law which  actually existed in the United States:


An 1879 codification of Maryland statutes prohibited blasphemy:


Art. 72, sec. 189. If any person, by writing or speaking, shall blaspheme or curse God, or shall write or utter any profane words of and concerning our Saviour, Jesus Christ, or of and concerning the Trinity, or any of the persons thereof, he shall, on conviction, be fined not more than one hundred dollars, or imprisoned not more than six months, or both fined and imprisoned as aforesaid, at the discretion of the court.

(Source en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_t..., which gives numerous other examples).




>>>>> Thank you.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:17PM #228
BDboy
Posts: 5,138

Jun 26, 2012 -- 1:32PM, REteach wrote:


Christian Sharia is clearly alive and well. Too bad we don't have laws against it...


 


Which is of course why the Founding Fathers erected a wall between church and state.  Certain groups of Christians just love to try to chip it away.




>>>>>>>> Kansas governor Brownback is one of them.


However I do not worry about the text of the law but when "Supporters" only says it is against "Sharia", it creates an environment that, can lead to other things.


Therefore, it is important to speak up before it is too late.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 3:35PM #229
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,125

Christian law would be based on Christian teachings and  doctrines that are  primarily based on the writings attributed to  Saul of Tarsus aka Paul, not the teachings of  Jesus of Nazareth, an iterant Rabbi(teacher) who may have lived approximately  from 3758-3788 (Hebrew calendar)  All western laws, social mores and traditions were  heavily influenced by the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant reformation. After the American and French revolutions  secularism began to gain more influence; The Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, the  French rights of man, [The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (FrenchDéclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen) is a fundamental document of the French Revolution, defining the individual and collective rights of all the estates of the realm as universal. Influenced by the doctrine of "natural right", the rights of man are held to be universal: valid at all times and in every place, pertaining to human nature itself( Wikipedia)], The writings of Locke, Mills ,et.al began to gain ascendency over church doctrine and the bible. 


The already mentioned American “blue laws”, marriage, divorce, status of women, slavery were all gauged against biblical teachings.       

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 29, 2012 - 4:20PM #230
BDboy
Posts: 5,138

I heard this news from Kansas. Click here to see how talking about such law sometimes pushes ppeople do this type of thing. (Information on a mosque in Wichita, KS).


 

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