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Switch to Forum Live View The Neuroscience of Flora
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 11:16AM #31
Erey
Posts: 18,940

To live is to die - the two go hand in hand.  All living things die and death is a big part of what makes life meaningful.   You are either going to die and be eaten (most things) or I guess your corpse can be somehow preserved indefinately (rare). 


Plants, animals and humans die and are for the most part eaten.  Most living things die in the process of being eaten.  You are alive one day until something you can't escape from (however you might try) eats you.  That is the way of life and if you think of it there is beauty in the horror of it all.  Death is typically pain and suffering but then it is over. 


Everything that is alive, including plants can't really escape this.  A gift of being human is that we can develop a sense of gratitude towards what we eat.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:56AM #32
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:16AM, Erey wrote:


To live is to die - the two go hand in hand.  All living things die and death is a big part of what makes life meaningful.   You are either going to die and be eaten (most things) or I guess your corpse can be somehow preserved indefinately (rare). 


Plants, animals and humans die and are for the most part eaten.  Most living things die in the process of being eaten.  You are alive one day until something you can't escape from (however you might try) eats you.  That is the way of life and if you think of it there is beauty in the horror of it all.  Death is typically pain and suffering but then it is over. 


Everything that is alive, including plants can't really escape this.  A gift of being human is that we can develop a sense of gratitude towards what we eat.




 


I don't take issue with PETA/vegans/animal rights pointing out the horrors and wanton animal cruelty of factory farming and such things. What they ignore -- when it comes to small, family-run operations, the cows, pigs, chickens and other creatures have lives that are far more pleasant and stress free than their counterparts have or would have in the wild. And also, their deaths are far quicker and more merciful than what wild animals face. 


For most animals in the wild, old age either isn't an issue, or it's extremely unpleasant. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:40AM #33
Erey
Posts: 18,940

Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:56AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:16AM, Erey wrote:


To live is to die - the two go hand in hand.  All living things die and death is a big part of what makes life meaningful.   You are either going to die and be eaten (most things) or I guess your corpse can be somehow preserved indefinately (rare). 


Plants, animals and humans die and are for the most part eaten.  Most living things die in the process of being eaten.  You are alive one day until something you can't escape from (however you might try) eats you.  That is the way of life and if you think of it there is beauty in the horror of it all.  Death is typically pain and suffering but then it is over. 


Everything that is alive, including plants can't really escape this.  A gift of being human is that we can develop a sense of gratitude towards what we eat.




 


I don't take issue with PETA/vegans/animal rights pointing out the horrors and wanton animal cruelty of factory farming and such things. What they ignore -- when it comes to small, family-run operations, the cows, pigs, chickens and other creatures have lives that are far more pleasant and stress free than their counterparts have or would have in the wild. And also, their deaths are far quicker and more merciful than what wild animals face. 


For most animals in the wild, old age either isn't an issue, or it's extremely unpleasant. 




 


I agree.  I also believe hunting to be superior because that animal is living an authentic existance and dies a fairly authentic death.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 11:58AM #34
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 15, 2012 -- 11:40AM, Erey wrote:


Jun 15, 2012 -- 10:56AM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 11:16AM, Erey wrote:


To live is to die - the two go hand in hand.  All living things die and death is a big part of what makes life meaningful.   You are either going to die and be eaten (most things) or I guess your corpse can be somehow preserved indefinately (rare). 


Plants, animals and humans die and are for the most part eaten.  Most living things die in the process of being eaten.  You are alive one day until something you can't escape from (however you might try) eats you.  That is the way of life and if you think of it there is beauty in the horror of it all.  Death is typically pain and suffering but then it is over. 


Everything that is alive, including plants can't really escape this.  A gift of being human is that we can develop a sense of gratitude towards what we eat.




 


I don't take issue with PETA/vegans/animal rights pointing out the horrors and wanton animal cruelty of factory farming and such things. What they ignore -- when it comes to small, family-run operations, the cows, pigs, chickens and other creatures have lives that are far more pleasant and stress free than their counterparts have or would have in the wild. And also, their deaths are far quicker and more merciful than what wild animals face. 


For most animals in the wild, old age either isn't an issue, or it's extremely unpleasant. 




 


I agree.  I also believe hunting to be superior because that animal is living an authentic existance and dies a fairly authentic death.




Exactly. As a person who lives near vast wildlife habitat, and hunts for meat, that's always been my point about hunting. It's direct, it's honest, it's in tune with nature -- and the responsiblity and blood is on my hands -- not some worker in a slaughterhouse. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 15, 2012 - 10:01PM #35
solfeggio
Posts: 9,336

Oh, blah, blah, blah - The old hunting-is-beneficial-to-the-environment-and-killing-animals-is kind-yada-yada-yada - argument rears its ugly head yet again.


And just how did a supposed discussion about whether plants could think turn into the usual suspects defending killing animals?


I would agree that, since nobody needs to eat animals to survive, raising animals for food is more immoral than hunting them.  But, since hunters kill for their own enjoyment, hunting is immoral, too, and the sport hunter eats his kill to justify his cruelty. 


Hunting is an American tradition.  It's a tradition of killing, crippling, extinction, and ecological destruction, and causing 200 million animals to die yearly, not counting those that are 'merely' crippled, orphaned, or harassed.


Nonhuman animals have indirect moral status.  In other words, we humans have a duty to other raitonal beings not to treat them cruelly.  Our human ends are not more important than those of the animal that does not want to be killed.


And using that old - very old - excuse that because wolves kill deer or lions kill gazelles it is OK for humans to kill animals, too - is meaningless.  Because that has nothing to do with us.


fizzyenergy.com/killing-animals-unethica...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 12:05AM #36
solfeggio
Posts: 9,336

Cute...very cute.


However, if was mouse and erey who made the original comments regarding killing of animals, not me.


But, you know what?  I can't speak for vegetarians (because I don't know any) but my vegan husband and I agree that vegans do tend to be 'in your face.'  We have a bad rap, and the reputation of being ornery and stuck-up.


Maybe this is so and maybe it isn't. 


I do know that I have a nice circle of friends and acquaintances who know my philosophy about eating animals, and they have no problem with it.  I belong to a group that runs a charity shop, where I work a couple of days a week, and when we get together for a luncheon every few weeks, in which everybody brings some food, and they eat their sausage rolls and luncheon meat sandwiches and I eat my salad of potato chips or whatever. 


And nobody cares what I eat and I don't make any comments about what they eat.


Once in awhile somebody will ask me if I ever eat meat, and I say no, and they nod, and that's the end of it.


Dietary habits don't singularly define a person.  There's a lot more to us than just what we happen to eat.  My family; my love of classical music and my jazz CD collection; my charity work; my rescued cats; my enjoyment of a John Grisham or Ken Follet novel; my enjoyment of film noir; my weekly excursions to the main library with my husband to look for books; feeding the wild ducks that come to our neighbourhood; having the grandsons over for the afternoon and feeding them biscuits and cupcakes --- these sorts of things, along with my ideas about the treatment of animals define me.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 7:14AM #37
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 16, 2012 -- 12:05AM, solfeggio wrote:


... my vegan husband and I agree that vegans do tend to be 'in your face.'  We have a bad rap, and the reputation of being ornery and stuck-up.



Like ideology adherents in general. It comes with the missionary zeal. It's not much different with evangelicals, communists, or climate change deniers. A pity for the cause when the messengers spoil it by turning it into something sectarian.


But then, as you show us when describing the charity group, real life can be so much less polarised and antagonistic when we switch off the "in your face" element. Kudos, solfeggio! Not eating animals, or the path of eating less and less of them, works on the global, societal level only with insight, I think, with knowledge. Not by belief, not by mass conversion to a sect. You giving the example of how it is possible, and that one can muster the determination and perseverence to actually do it, that's what speaks loudest - without many words.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 10:20AM #38
christzen
Posts: 6,569

Jun 16, 2012 -- 12:05AM, solfeggio wrote:


But, you know what?  I can't speak for vegetarians (because I don't know any) but my vegan husband and I agree that vegans do tend to be 'in your face.'  We have a bad rap, and the reputation of being ornery and stuck-up.


Maybe this is so and maybe it isn't. 




 


Judging from what I read from vegans and vegetarians here, and on another site I often frequent, it is so. Just for grins, I checked on the other site, as I haven't been there in a while, and the thread started in 2005 by a vegan decrying omnivores is still going and on the first page of the board 7 years later. A lot of it consists of him and the other vegans/vegetarians implying that the Quakers who do not agree with them aren't really Quakers or Christians. They would probably say worse but the owner/mod of the forum is very strict with insulting. Here they are just more open about saying that omnivores are a lower life form on the evolutionary ladder.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 10:25AM #39
arielg
Posts: 9,116

I agree.  I also believe hunting to be superior because that animal is living an authentic existance and dies a fairly authentic death.



What the hell is "dying a fairly  authentic death"?. How is dying with a bullet in the head "authentic"?  It sounds like  gobbledegook   hunters and meat eaters engage in to justify killing. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 16, 2012 - 11:25AM #40
christzen
Posts: 6,569

Jun 16, 2012 -- 10:25AM, arielg wrote:


I agree.  I also believe hunting to be superior because that animal is living an authentic existance and dies a fairly authentic death.



What the hell is "dying a fairly  authentic death"?. How is dying with a bullet in the head "authentic"?  It sounds like  gobbledegook   hunters and meat eaters engage in to justify killing. 





 


What makes you think that hunters feel the need to justify their actions to people who oppose them? The vast majority of hunters couldn't give a rip that some who get their meat solely from cellophane wrapped boxes, or don't eat meat, think that they are evil. I certainly don't.

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