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Locked: Big Apple Soda Ban
2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 4:24PM #201
rabello
Posts: 21,308

Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:51AM, Girlchristian wrote:


A person has the right to consume too much if they want to. This wont work because people who want the soda will still get it, but the businesses will get more money from those people.




And nobody's stopping them from exercising that right.  If they decide to pay more for a second serving that's their choice.  It is using the law of supply and demand.  It is an exercise in personal liberty.  Bloomberg isn't trying to stop people for consuming as much of anything that they want, except maybe for pot.


Nonetheless, I think the manufacturer has a moral obligation to produce a product that is safe to eat and doesn't have unnecessary additives that are dangerous to one's health.  I understand that you disagree, that you think all responsibility lies with the buyer, not the manufacturer.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:51AM, Girlchristian wrote:


If the buyer doesnt buy it then the manufacturer will change. If someone wants to consume too much crap than that is their right.




And nobody is violating that right.



Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:51AM, Girlchristian wrote:




I dont know anyone outside of my husband that does make their own. IMO, not knowing whats in ones food is laziness.





Knowing what's in it and understanding the consequences of what's in it are two different things.   Fortunately for us, it was public health activists that managed to force manufacturers to put labels on their processed foods, so that we can know what's in it.  Not so with what you get at most restaurants.


Doesn't seem to me to be too much to ask businesses to serve reasonable sized servings of fatty foods and sugary drinks instead of taking advantage of human beings' weaknesses for their bottom line.  Nobody is interfering with anybody' right to consume too mauch crap if they want to.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:51AM, Girlchristian wrote:


According to you, but you should have no say and neither should Bloomberg in how a person eats.




Neither I nor Mayor Bloomberg has even tried to have a say in how or how much a person eats or drinks.  Nobody is talking about "banning" or "limiting" anybody



Jun 13, 2012 -- 9:51AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Besides they'll just buy two drinks so all this really does is make businesses more money.




Yep, that's exactly what I've been saying all along. It's their right to do that, if they so desire.



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 4:34PM #202
rabello
Posts: 21,308

Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


1. Most businesses don't do this because it costs them money.




Maybe it depends on where one lives.  Just about EVERYWHERE I go provides free refills, and the glasses they use are BIG.   You can't get a "small" meaning 8 or 12 ounces where I live. Believe me or don't.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


2. If true, why do you blame the business and not the person eating that could say "no thanks, I don't want any more"?




Because that is not how human beings behave and it doesn't make them stupid or lazy or anything else but human.   If it were all as easy as you all make it sound, nobody in America would be overweight and nobody would have obesity-related illnesses early in life.  Plus, as I've already said, I am neither a Republican nor Libertarian, so I am not into the blame game when it comes to the public health.  I accept that human beings aren't perfect and make mistakes.  Maybe you don't know any obese people or people with diabetes or heart disease to point the finger of blame at for their suffering.  I do.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


The problem is that you put ALL the blame on the evil, immoral businesses because you think people aren't smart enough to make their own decisions so others must do it for them.




Please don't tell me what I think.  Otherwise I'll have to conclude you base your rebuttals on hysteria like somebody else I know.  I've wasted quite a bit of time, effort and digital space telling you all what I think.   That you disagree does not concern me.  Mischaracterization of what somebody else says based on some polictical dogma someone adheres to is thread-derailing.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 4:46PM #203
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,255

Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:34PM, rabello wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


1. Most businesses don't do this because it costs them money.




Maybe it depends on where one lives.  Just about EVERYWHERE I go provides free refills, and the glasses they use are BIG.   You can't get a "small" meaning 8 or 12 ounces where I live. Believe me or don't.


Most places ask if a person would like more...

Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


2. If true, why do you blame the business and not the person eating that could say "no thanks, I don't want any more"?




Because that is not how human beings behave and it doesn't make them stupid or lazy or anything else but human.   If it were all as easy as you all make it sound, nobody in America would be overweight and nobody would have obesity-related illnesses early in life.  Plus, as I've already said, I am neither a Republican nor Libertarian, so I am not into the blame game when it comes to the public health.  I accept that human beings aren't perfect and make mistakes.  Maybe you don't know any obese people or people with diabetes or heart disease to point the finger of blame at for their suffering.  I do.


Okay so the businesses that serve the soda have an obligation to do the right thing for people's health but the people drinking them have no such obligation?


My grandmother died after going into her second diabetic coma and my grandfather died from heart disease. I'm well aware what bad decisions can do to a person, but I dont blame the businesses that sold my grandmother all the sugary and fatty crap she ate--it was her choice and she knew exactly what she was doing.


 


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:20PM, Girlchristian wrote:


The problem is that you put ALL the blame on the evil, immoral businesses because you think people aren't smart enough to make their own decisions so others must do it for them.




Please don't tell me what I think.  Otherwise I'll have to conclude you base your rebuttals on hysteria like somebody else I know.  I've wasted quite a bit of time, effort and digital space telling you all what I think.   That you disagree does not concern me.  Mischaracterization of what somebody else says based on some polictical dogma someone adheres to is thread-derailing.


You call the businesses immoral for selling food and drinks you think they shouldn't and make excuses for the people that choose to purchase them...





"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 4:53PM #204
rabello
Posts: 21,308

More mischaracterizations and misrepresentations....and personal insults instead of legitimate rebuttals to legitimate challenges.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 10:36AM, Erey wrote:


You don't want to go sugar free, you just want to scream and foam at the mouth at how the "stupid people" need saving from themselves.  A long as they don't infringe on your sugar consumption, right?  hypocrite




You've been out of control on this thread for a long time, now, Erey.  I do regret that you just don't get it.   However, you are wasting your time and my time with your insults and your repeated mischaracterizations and misrepresentations of what I say and what I believe.  So don't waste more of your time responding anymore, unless you have a need to, because you and I are done, here.  It is rather puzzling that you could become so enraged with both fists clenched and flaying any which way because other people don't see the world in the harsh, punative way you do, all over something that doesn't even affect you !! 


ps...I haven't called people "stupid"....I DON'T call people "stupid"...those are YOUR words, not mine...oh, and GirlChristian's words.  Own them.   Your "mean girl" routines are amusing.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:09PM #205
Cesmom
Posts: 4,863

Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:53PM, rabello wrote:


It is rather puzzling that you could become so enraged with both fists clenched and flaying any which way because other people don't see the world in the harsh, punative way you do, all over something that doesn't even affect you !! 




I realize your response is directed at Erey, but I have to say something about this statement.  This does affect all of us...perhaps not directly, but indirectly.  It creates a precedent that says it's okay for the government to decide what businesses are and are not allowed to sell to consumers, regardless of whether it's a true and immediate health risk.  It makes sense to say you can't sell me cyanide or lead paint, but sugary drinks do not fall into that category.  Having a 32 ounce soda is not dangerous, nor will it cause obesity or diabetes.  Having a 32 ounce soda every day might be another story, but having one on occassion would do no harm to anyone without existing health problems.  So, this becomes an issue of unnecessary government control, and if people don't speak up about that, it will continue to spiral down that path.

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:15PM #206
rabello
Posts: 21,308

Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Most places ask if a person would like more...




Maybe in your experience.  I am willing to accord you enough respect to acknowledge that what you say is true in your own experience.  I would HOPE that you could return that respect by acknowledging that what I relate from my own experience is true, and that you are in no position to summarily tell me my experience is wrong.  There are a lot of places where the waiter/waitress is so busy that they don't stop to ask, they just bring a second, or third glass.   


 


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Okay so the businesses that serve the soda have an obligation to do the right thing for people's health but the people drinking them have no such obligation?




Yes, businesses that are going to sell a product to a human being who can be harmed has a moral obligaton to make sure the product is as safe as it can be.  I don't believe in predatory capitalism.  You do.  That's why I'm a Green and you're a Republican.  The consumer's "responisiblity" is secondary in this case.  A kid should have an equal right to trust that the stuff he's being sold is safe.  That's not too much to ask.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


My grandmother died after going into her second diabetic coma and my grandfather died from heart disease. I'm well aware what bad decisions can do to a person, but I dont blame the businesses that sold my grandmother all the sugary and fatty crap she ate--it was her choice and she knew exactly what she was doing.




Diabetes, heart disease and cancer all run in my family and killed family members.  I would never , in a million years, blame them for their suffering.  Period.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


You call the businesses immoral for selling food and drinks you think they shouldn't and make excuses for the people that choose to purchase them...






I haven't made any excuses. It is your side -- what I'll call the "mean girl" side that is making excuses -- for inanimate businesses instead of people. Your side is the one full of blame and full or scorn, it's your side that uses words like "stupid people"..  You said it...own it.  I'm regret that you, Cesmom and Erey just don't get it.  No where have I said that there are "foods and drinks" that I "think they shouldn't" sell. Nowhere. I have not called for a ban anywhere. If you are going to tell me I'm wrong, and tell me what I think, the least you can do it GET IT RIGHT!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:16PM #207
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,255

Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:53PM, rabello wrote:


It is rather puzzling that you could become so enraged with both fists clenched and flaying any which way because other people don't see the world in the harsh, punative way you do, all over something that doesn't even affect you !! 




I realize your response is directed at Erey, but I have to say something about this statement.  This does affect all of us...perhaps not directly, but indirectly.  It creates a precedent that says it's okay for the government to decide what businesses are and are not allowed to sell to consumers, regardless of whether it's a true and immediate health risk.  It makes sense to say you can't sell me cyanide or lead paint, but sugary drinks do not fall into that category.  Having a 32 ounce soda is not dangerous, nor will it cause obesity or diabetes.  Having a 32 ounce soda every day might be another story, but having one on occassion would do no harm to anyone without existing health problems.  So, this becomes an issue of unnecessary government control, and if people don't speak up about that, it will continue to spiral down that path.





Exactly, but it seems that some have no problem with more gov't control.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:22PM #208
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,255

Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:15PM, rabello wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Most places ask if a person would like more...




Maybe in your experience.  I am willing to accord you enough respect to aknowledge that what you say is true in your own experience.  I would HOPE that you could return that respect by acknowledging that what I relate from my own experience is true, and that you are in no position to summarily tell me my experience is wrong.  There are a lot of places where the waiter/waitress is so busy that they don't stop to ask, they just bring a second, or third glass.   


 


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Okay so the businesses that serve the soda have an obligation to do the right thing for people's health but the people drinking them have no such obligation?




Yes, businesses that are going to sell a product to a human being who can be harmed has a moral obligaton to make sure the product is as safe as it can be.  I don't believe in predatory capitalism.  You do.  That's why I'm a Green and you're a Republican.  The consumer's "responisiblity" is secondary in this case.  A kid should have an equal right to trust that the stuff he's being sold is safe.  That's not too much to ask.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


My grandmother died after going into her second diabetic coma and my grandfather died from heart disease. I'm well aware what bad decisions can do to a person, but I dont blame the businesses that sold my grandmother all the sugary and fatty crap she ate--it was her choice and she knew exactly what she was doing.




Diabetes, heart disease and cancer all run in my family and killed family members.  I would never , in a million years, blame them for their suffering.  Period.


My grandmother made her own decisions. She had free medical care and chose to ignore everything her doctors said because she didnt want to. She made that choice. It's not 'blame' to acknowledge that she made her own choices and only she was responsible for them. Period.


Jun 13, 2012 -- 4:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


You call the businesses immoral for selling food and drinks you think they shouldn't and make excuses for the people that choose to purchase them...






I haven't made any excuses. It is your side -- what I'll call the "mean girl" side that is making excuses -- for inanimate businesses instead of people. Your side is the one full of blame and full or scorn, it's your side that uses words like "stupid people"..  You said it...own it.  I'm regret that you, Cesmom and Erey just don't get it.


I havent once been mean to you and if you want to resort to name calling them i'm done discussing this with you.





"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:28PM #209
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:16PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:09PM, Cesmom wrote:


This does affect all of us...perhaps not directly, but indirectly.  It creates a precedent that says it's okay for the government to decide what businesses are and are not allowed to sell to consumers, regardless of whether it's a true and immediate health risk. 



Exactly, but it seems that some have no problem with more gov't control.



Why would this make any sense?


If you put public health before private profit, how would that create a precedent "regardless of whether it's a true and immediate health risk"???


Please spell this out to me. And to rabello, if she's still around...


Why is "government" such a big bogeyman that you'd rather sell your health than take sensible measures to promote self-control? (Yes, self-control! Because, mind you, the people wanting cheap maxi softdrinks can still exert their freedom to choose by buying the stuff in the next supermarket... if they don't, then maybe their choice wasn't as free as the market apologists say it is, right?)

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 5:29PM #210
rabello
Posts: 21,308

Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:16PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Exactly, but it seems that some have no problem with more gov't control.




What, exactly, is the "gov't control" you fear so much from having businesses in NYC limited to serving 16 ounce servings in one transaction?   If a business serves more than the 16 ounces, they'll get fined, just like they'd get fined if they allow a smoker to smoke in the restaurant, and that's only if they got reported.


Did you know that the Republican governor in Florida is scrubbing the voter rolls to disenfranchise minority voters from this coming election?  Did you know that the governor of Texas has executed more people in 7 years than any other governor in American history?


THAT'S the kind of "gov't control" you should fear.


I don't understand people who choose to live here and yet hate the American government.  Move to Haiti if you can't stand government.  There's no social security, or medicare, or medicaid or food stamps or welfare, but there's no "gov't control" either.

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