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Locked: Big Apple Soda Ban
2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 9:17AM #231
Cesmom
Posts: 4,848

Jun 14, 2012 -- 12:09AM, rabello wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:11PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:48PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:37PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Where does legislation like this end?



I think the question in the USA is rather, under what conditions would even you start to think that "legislation like this" could begin?


Do you approve of tobacco taxes? If so, how is this different?




It is different because it's not limiting a thing.  A smoker can buy cigarettes by the carton if they choose...heck they can buy them by the case if they want.  No one's telling them they have to buy them a pack at a time or not at all.




I don't see the difference you're referring to.


If a smoker wants to buy a case of cigarettes, they can do it, and they're going to pay more for it than someone who buys a pack. Not only in increased price set by the seller, but in increased controlling, nanny-state, horrible-government taxes.


If a soda drinker wants to buy more than 16 ounce of a super-sugary drink, they can do it, they're just going to pay more than someone who buys it in a 16 ounce container, and that won't be in those controlling, nanny-state, horrible-government taxes, but in increased price set by the seller.


Same thing in each case.   It's not about telling people what they can buy and/or consume.  It's about mildly regulating what profiteers can sell, for the good of the many when what they're selling causes harm, and even then sellers are not prohibited in any way, shape or form from selling anything they want to sell.




The cigarette smoker is not going to pay more per unit, but the soda drinker will.  Who benefits from that?  The evil profiteers, that's who.  Cigarette buyers are not being limited on the type of unit they can buy.  The government didn't step in and say cigarett packs can now only contain 10 cigarettes.  No, they left that up to the consumer.

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 10:22AM #232
Erey
Posts: 18,738

I am aware of the newest, hot off the presses research that says sugar is enemy #1.  I just don't buy it.  That said, I do think people should learn how to limit their sugar intake. I do think for people wanting to lose weight sugar intake is one of the first things that should be addressed.    I don't buy this concept that having a soda habit is akin to slowly commiting suicide or something.  Let's don't go crazy.  I think you can drink soda every day and be healthy.  We all know people that do. 


Prices are going to rise and fall but I don't see an end to this era of cheap and abundant food.  This is a good thing because we used to have a significant problem with hunger.   I think it is most important and has the best and most longest reaching effects to help willing people develop the tools they need to embark on a healthier lifestyle.  I talk to people all the time who are of a variety of different educational backgrounds and socioeconomic levels and ages and they made huge leaps in weight loss and healthy changes.  There is nothing magic about these people they had just reached a point where they were willing and open so they sought out the resources to help themselves.  We need to figure out how to make more of THAT happen.  Because that is going to have a much broader and deeper and further reaching postiive consequences for society. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 1:26PM #233
rabello
Posts: 21,297

Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Cesmom wrote:


The cigarette smoker is not going to pay more per unit, but the soda drinker will.  Who benefits from that?  The evil profiteers, that's who.  Cigarette buyers are not being limited on the type of unit they can buy.  The government didn't step in and say cigarett packs can now only contain 10 cigarettes.  No, they left that up to the consumer.




A difference without distinction.


Cigarette packs have always come 20 per pack, and it isn't the consumer who made that decision.  The sellers made that decision, and it wasn't based on dumping a too much of a bad thing with one's hamburgers and hotdogs because they'll buy it anyway, it was based on a smoking rate of approx 2 per waking hour.  And contrary to what you said, earlier, a person cannot go to a store a buy a case, or crate of cigarettes.  Vendors who supply cigarette machine can buy it wholesale, consumers who buy more than a pack, are going to pay a lot more that someone buying a pack -- per unit, too, because the cost per pack isn't equivalent to the cost per carton, and vendors who buy the cancer sticks wholesale get a break on the cost that is not passed to the consumer.


Are you actually offended that people might be dissuaded from smoking cigarettes because of cost, mostly due to taxes government has imposed on smokers' purchases.


Are you actually offended that some parents of overweight and prediabetic kids in NYC (only) might be dissuaded from letting their kids have one or two 32 ounce jugs of super sugary drink because of cost, that has nothing to do with taxes?




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 1:38PM #234
arielg
Posts: 9,116

I really don't see the value of banning large sizes. 


 Maybe it has some psychological effect in the sense that some people who  would drink a lot just "because it is there", maybe  wouldn't if they had to buy another small one. But, is that enough to have a law about  it?


We should just go back to  a choice of "small", "medium" or "large", with different prices.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 1:39PM #235
rabello
Posts: 21,297

Jun 14, 2012 -- 8:58AM, Nepenthe wrote:



That is a shame, since while I may not agree with you, I always find that you present reasoned and intelligent arguements.




Thank you.  Same back to you.  I agree with you on most issues, actually, even though I am not libertarian.  As you can see, I am not quite "done" here :) but I was talking more about this thread more than the entire board, altho it is also true that I am having more and more trouble with this website!!


I agree that those DUI checkpoints are a problem, perhaps for a different reason than your's, my reason being the increase in incidences of police overstepping their authority and brutalizing mere citizens.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 1:46PM #236
rabello
Posts: 21,297

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:38PM, arielg wrote:


I really don't see the value of banning large sizes. 


 Maybe it has some psychological effect in the sense that some people who  would drink a lot just "because it is there", maybe  wouldn't if they had to buy another small one. But, is that enough to have a law about  it?


We should just go back to  a choice of "small", "medium" or "large", with different prices.




Ah, the good ole days, which really weren't that long ago, when "small" really was "small" (8 ounces), "medium" was a little bigger (12 ounces) and "large" was a treat at 16 ounces.   You paid for what you ordered, and nobody, back then, felt (sob, sob) deprived.  There were less obese people, including obese children, and children weren't developing adult onset diseases related to obesity. 


I don't know who broke the pattern and started the trend in unreasonable serving sizes....my guess would be the restaurant chain "Hooters".  


Anything in America for a buck, ya know!! 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:27PM #237
Cesmom
Posts: 4,848

Jun 14, 2012 -- 1:26PM, rabello wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Cesmom wrote:


The cigarette smoker is not going to pay more per unit, but the soda drinker will.  Who benefits from that?  The evil profiteers, that's who.  Cigarette buyers are not being limited on the type of unit they can buy.  The government didn't step in and say cigarett packs can now only contain 10 cigarettes.  No, they left that up to the consumer.




A difference without distinction.


Cigarette packs have always come 20 per pack, and it isn't the consumer who made that decision.  The sellers made that decision, and it wasn't based on dumping a too much of a bad thing with one's hamburgers and hotdogs because they'll buy it anyway, it was based on a smoking rate of approx 2 per waking hour.  And contrary to what you said, earlier, a person cannot go to a store a buy a case, or crate of cigarettes.  Vendors who supply cigarette machine can buy it wholesale, consumers who buy more than a pack, are going to pay a lot more that someone buying a pack -- per unit, too, because the cost per pack isn't equivalent to the cost per carton, and vendors who buy the cancer sticks wholesale get a break on the cost that is not passed to the consumer.


Are you actually offended that people might be dissuaded from smoking cigarettes because of cost, mostly due to taxes government has imposed on smokers' purchases.


Are you actually offended that some parents of overweight and prediabetic kids in NYC (only) might be dissuaded from letting their kids have one or two 32 ounce jugs of super sugary drink because of cost, that has nothing to do with taxes?




What I'm offended by is the fact that the mayor of NYC would find it necessary to eliminate an already existing size choice for consumers, rather than expecting consumers to exercise their own self-control.  I'm offended by the fact that he's basically acting like he believes the typical American consumer is a child who needs to be protected from their own choices.  How dare he act like consumers are incapable of making the right choice if presented with the option of making the wrong one?  It's arrogant, and it's not going to fix the problem anyway.  

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 2:54PM #238
teilhard
Posts: 51,183

So rather than limiting "Size" to Five Liters or less, we could just hugely TAX the Larger Size Portions, with the Tax Dollars thus collected going to Medicare for Treatment of Obesity-Diabetes and such ... Why not ... ???


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:14AM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:16PM, teilhard wrote:


But we greatly restrict and control and limit Access to Tobacco -- especially by YOUNG People -- and we now impose HEAVY Taxes on it ...


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:11PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:48PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:37PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Where does legislation like this end?



I think the question in the USA is rather, under what conditions would even you start to think that "legislation like this" could begin?


Do you approve of tobacco taxes? If so, how is this different?




It is different because it's not limiting a thing.  A smoker can buy cigarettes by the carton if they choose...heck they can buy them by the case if they want.  No one's telling them they have to buy them a pack at a time or not at all.








I don't have any problem with limiting access to young people.  They took all the pop and candy machines out of my kids' high school.  I thought that was a great idea.  I take issue with the government trying to limit access to adults who should be allowed to exercise their own self control instead of relying on the state to do it for them.  As for taxes...tax away...tax sugar, tax cigarettes, tax whatever...it's not the same as removing buying options from the menu.  





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 3:01PM #239
Cesmom
Posts: 4,848

Jun 14, 2012 -- 2:54PM, teilhard wrote:


So rather than limiting "Size" to Five Liters or less, we could just hugely TAX the Larger Size Portions, with the Tax Dollars thus collected going to Medicare for Treatment of Obesity-Diabetes and such ... Why not ... ???


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:14AM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:16PM, teilhard wrote:


But we greatly restrict and control and limit Access to Tobacco -- especially by YOUNG People -- and we now impose HEAVY Taxes on it ...


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:11PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:48PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:37PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Where does legislation like this end?



I think the question in the USA is rather, under what conditions would even you start to think that "legislation like this" could begin?


Do you approve of tobacco taxes? If so, how is this different?




It is different because it's not limiting a thing.  A smoker can buy cigarettes by the carton if they choose...heck they can buy them by the case if they want.  No one's telling them they have to buy them a pack at a time or not at all.








I don't have any problem with limiting access to young people.  They took all the pop and candy machines out of my kids' high school.  I thought that was a great idea.  I take issue with the government trying to limit access to adults who should be allowed to exercise their own self control instead of relying on the state to do it for them.  As for taxes...tax away...tax sugar, tax cigarettes, tax whatever...it's not the same as removing buying options from the menu.  








I live in a state that has no tax on packaged food.  I appreciate that.  Food is a necessity, and it's nice to not have to add sales tax to my already expensive grocery bill.


However, I wouldn't have a problem with a "junk food tax" that included soda, chips, and other items with no nutritional value.  I'd rather have to pay taxes on a 2-liter bottle of soda than be told that I can't buy one.

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
Quick Reply
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 14, 2012 - 3:09PM #240
teilhard
Posts: 51,183

Agreed ...


Jun 14, 2012 -- 3:01PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 14, 2012 -- 2:54PM, teilhard wrote:


So rather than limiting "Size" to Five Liters or less, we could just hugely TAX the Larger Size Portions, with the Tax Dollars thus collected going to Medicare for Treatment of Obesity-Diabetes and such ... Why not ... ???


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:14AM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:16PM, teilhard wrote:


But we greatly restrict and control and limit Access to Tobacco -- especially by YOUNG People -- and we now impose HEAVY Taxes on it ...


Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:11PM, Cesmom wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:48PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 13, 2012 -- 5:37PM, Girlchristian wrote:


Where does legislation like this end?



I think the question in the USA is rather, under what conditions would even you start to think that "legislation like this" could begin?


Do you approve of tobacco taxes? If so, how is this different?




It is different because it's not limiting a thing.  A smoker can buy cigarettes by the carton if they choose...heck they can buy them by the case if they want.  No one's telling them they have to buy them a pack at a time or not at all.








I don't have any problem with limiting access to young people.  They took all the pop and candy machines out of my kids' high school.  I thought that was a great idea.  I take issue with the government trying to limit access to adults who should be allowed to exercise their own self control instead of relying on the state to do it for them.  As for taxes...tax away...tax sugar, tax cigarettes, tax whatever...it's not the same as removing buying options from the menu.  








I live in a state that has no tax on packaged food.  I appreciate that.  Food is a necessity, and it's nice to not have to add sales tax to my already expensive grocery bill.


However, I wouldn't have a problem with a "junk food tax" that included soda, chips, and other items with no nutritional value.  I'd rather have to pay taxes on a 2-liter bottle of soda than be told that I can't buy one.





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