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Switch to Forum Live View Chris Hayes and heroes
2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:06AM #11
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,149

May 30, 2012 -- 10:31PM, TemplarS wrote:


The thing is, Solf, without heroes from your country and mine, you might be waking up tomorrow looking at the Japanese flag flying over Wellington.


As long as there are wars worth fighting (and there will be, since it was also once said, peace without justice is no peace at all) it will take brave men and women to fight them.


As for the many wars which are not worth fighting, you need to lay the blame for the bad wars at the proper doorstep.  This is something we have lost in our time; centuries past, at least the generals and kings rode into battle alongside their troops.




True and this is the first Presidential election since Roosevelt/Dewey where neither side's candidate has served, in some capacity, in the military.


Anyone willing to fight for their country is a hero, IMO and it's our leaders and more importantly, our responsibility to make sure they don't have to fight unless absolutely necessary.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 11:45AM #12
arielg
Posts: 9,116

May 31, 2012 -- 12:43AM, Roodog wrote:


May 30, 2012 -- 9:49PM, arielg wrote:


Having served in the US Army, I take umbridge at the comparison with mafia thugs.



So, are you saying that you will take umbridge  (or umbrage) about any opinion you don't agree with or like?  What kind of discussion do you expect to have? I guess only people who want to insult you will say anything.




I stand corrected, My computer does not have spell check on B'net.


I still take offence at being likened to thug because I had served my country.




I wasn't really correcting you. Umbridge is also a word whose meaning is not very clear to me and I didn't know which one you meant.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:57PM #13
TemplarS
Posts: 6,776

Umbridge is a character in Harry Potter.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 2:51PM #14
rabello
Posts: 21,107

May 31, 2012 -- 1:42AM, Yavanna wrote:


I love how NATO invades Afghanistan....




At the request of the US, with the US providing the majority of bodies and bullion for the "adventure"


May 31, 2012 -- 1:42AM, Yavanna wrote:


....but you still blame the United States. As if you don't have anything better to do than troll the U.S. when an international task force is involved.




If the US were to withdraw its bodies, its bullion, and its planning, the occupation of that sovereign nation would be OVER and DONE. 


May 31, 2012 -- 1:42AM, Yavanna wrote:


If you hate the U.S. so much then don't move here. Otherwise if you don't see the rest of us trashing Middle Earth... I mean New Zealand.



I don't see anything "hateful" toward the US in anything solfeggio has written... Sounds like you hate those who are antiwar.   I am American, I don't hate the US and I agree with solfeggio about the immoral foreign policies American has engaged in under both Bush and the none-hope-and-change Pres Obama.   Sorry if that makes you mad.


Maybe it's a generational thing.  People who came up after the Reagan Revolution haven't had any inspirational role models to look up to or learn from, sorry as that situation is.


I recently ordered a book from WETA that is about the natural beauty of New Zealand.  I can't wait for it to be delivered so I can enjoy it. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 3:27PM #15
rabello
Posts: 21,107

The word "hero" has become a cliche, at least here in America.   Just about everyone is a "hero" these days.  In terms of military heroes, it has the same "ring" to it as the other cliche "war is hell", as in..."war is hell (but we keep doing it, anyway)"   A different term needs to come up for service personnel so as to save the word for those who would now have to be called "superheroes"


The superheroes, in my mind, are those vets who threw their heroes' metals away on Memorial Day, telling NATO by borrowing from Chief Joseph: "We don't kill for you no more"


Also, those JAGs who defend the human rights of Gitmo detainees, call for the end of indefinite detention without evidence, charge, trial, or conviction (are you listeing, Pres Obama?), and those service personnel who helped put an end to atrocities like Abu Ghraib (outed by a soldier) or killing civilians to collect body parts for trophies (also outed by a soldier).

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 5:06PM #16
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

May 31, 2012 -- 2:51PM, rabello wrote:


At the request of the US, with the US providing the majority of bodies and bullion for the "adventure"




Ah, yes. Because 9/11 was a barrel of laughs and we went into Afghanistan for shits and giggles.


May 31, 2012 -- 2:51PM, rabello wrote:


If the US were to withdraw its bodies, its bullion, and its planning, the occupation of that sovereign nation would be OVER and DONE. 




You're right. We shouldn't try to clean up our mess with the international community. We should let it all burn.


May 31, 2012 -- 2:51PM, rabello wrote:


I don't see anything "hateful" toward the US in anything solfeggio has written... Sounds like you hate those who are antiwar.   I am American, I don't hate the US and I agree with solfeggio about the immoral foreign policies American has engaged in under both Bush and the none-hope-and-change Pres Obama.   Sorry if that makes you mad.


Maybe it's a generational thing.  People who came up after the Reagan Revolution haven't had any inspirational role models to look up to or learn from, sorry as that situation is.


I recently ordered a book from WETA that is about the natural beauty of New Zealand.  I can't wait for it to be delivered so I can enjoy it. 




Since you like to ignore facts like solf does, it would make sense you agree with her. The only people who aren't anti-war are few and far between. War is loathsome, but that's a very nice attempt at trying to counter-attack me. For someone so strongly opposed to war you've got the basics down.


I disagree with many of the choices made by both administrations too. Sorry if that throws a wrench in your little fantasy. If you'd like to make me mad you'll have to try harder. Frown


Yes, maybe it is a generational thing. Shifting tactics to insult someone's age always works! That shows how much more intelligent and mature you really are. I'm impressed.


Obviously no one can have a role model from history. That would be silly. The only role models that exist have to be alive. Why, history doesn't even matter! Bah! humbug! Look to the present!


Thank you for all the precious words of wisdom and insight you've shared with me. Someday maybe I can grow up to be old and bitter too!

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:46PM #17
solfeggio
Posts: 9,185

Rabello -


Thank you for your posts, which, as usual, shed light on some of the issues supposedly being 'debated' in this thread.


I hope you will enjoy your book about NZ! 


This is a beautiful country, but, sadly, our government has recently been taken to task by the World Wildlife Fund for failing to act on environmental promises made at the original Rio Earth Summit twenty years ago.


tvnz.co.nz/national-news/nz-slammed-fail...


As you can see, I have no problem criticising my own country's policies.


However, whenever I deign to offer any sort of criticism of some policy of the U.S., somebody always decides that I 'hate' America.  I've never been sure why this should be so because, if we don't question the status quo and explore the issues, how are we ever going to learn anything?


Once more, for the record: I do not 'hate' the U.S.  Based on what I've read over the years about the U.S., I really did used to think it was a great country.  But I do think poor leadership, too much money spent on unwinnable wars, and not enough committment to looking to the nneds the people at home has caused America's prestige to slip. 


And, since America is one of the most powerful countries on earth, and the policies of its government do, eventually, affect even those of us who live offshore, I really don't think it is wrong to question some of those policies.


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:57PM #18
solfeggio
Posts: 9,185

Yavanna -


Your own Vice-President has said that the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, that they are not America's enemy, and they pose no threat to America's national security.  He further noted that they are not international terrorists and did not support Al-Quaeda.


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076564...


So why, then, are Americans fighting in Afghanistan at all?  Why are Americans dying there?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 12:19AM #19
rabello
Posts: 21,107

May 31, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Yavanna wrote:


Ah, yes. Because 9/11 was a barrel of laughs and we went into Afghanistan for shits and giggles.




rolls eyes.


That kind of reactionary-ism is simply boring, by now, even if it is about the 9/11 tragedy.


"DO BETTER"


May 31, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Yavanna wrote:


You're right. We shouldn't try to clean up our mess with the international community. We should let it all burn.




What are you talking about.  The topic is the hazing of Chris Hayes by the right (mostly) because he spoke his mind about using words to legitimize illegitimate undertakings.


May 31, 2012 -- 5:06PM, Yavanna wrote:


Since you like to ignore facts like solf does, it would make sense you agree with her. The only people who aren't anti-war are few and far between. War is loathsome, but that's a very nice attempt at trying to counter-attack me. For someone so strongly opposed to war you've got the basics down.


I disagree with many of the choices made by both administrations too. Sorry if that throws a wrench in your little fantasy. If you'd like to make me mad you'll have to try harder. Frown


Yes, maybe it is a generational thing. Shifting tactics to insult someone's age always works! That shows how much more intelligent and mature you really are. I'm impressed.


Obviously no one can have a role model from history. That would be silly. The only role models that exist have to be alive. Why, history doesn't even matter! Bah! humbug! Look to the present!


Thank you for all the precious words of wisdom and insight you've shared with me. Someday maybe I can grow up to be old and bitter too!




Apparently, in an argumentative, bad mood (again), huh?  So far, you've b*tched at arielg, at solfeggio, at me, but haven't said what you think about a point the Chris Hayes made about the caprcious use of the word "hero" mostly by people who wouldn't under any circumstance join up to fight the wars they support. 


And yes, I should have said "social justice movements" rather than "role model" in my lament

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 12:34AM #20
rabello
Posts: 21,107

May 31, 2012 -- 9:57PM, solfeggio wrote:


Yavanna -


Your own Vice-President has said that the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, that they are not America's enemy, and they pose no threat to America's national security.  He further noted that they are not international terrorists and did not support Al-Quaeda.


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076564...




Facts, solfeggio?  You expect facts to be in play, here?    That information about the Taliban was known by Bush and Cheney, too.


May 31, 2012 -- 9:57PM, solfeggio wrote:


So why, then, are Americans fighting in Afghanistan at all?  Why are Americans dying there?




2 reasons:  one, a misinterpretation of events and the lack of a leader who would appeal to our better angels and our sense of dignity in the face of tragedy, and two, a misconstrued philosophy called "preemptive war" aka as the Bush Doctrine, morphed into the Obama Doctrine.


The misinterpretation of events was to respond to use the tools of "war" against an entire nation of civilians to catch one criminal (Osama bin Laden), as if the criminal act on 9/11 was an act of war by the military of another nation-state (it wasn't)


The lack of a leader who would inspire us instead of rile us lead to the "kill them before they get over here and cut off your head while you sleep in your bed" kind of rah-rah-ism


The Preemptive War Doctrine (aka kill them before they kill us, if they're not terrorists, they're "collaterally damaged human shields) seeks to prevent another from taking bin Laden's place to commit another criminal act.


It was to catch a criminal...who ironically enough, got caught through traditional investigative work, not anything that was done in Afghanistan


(Plus... A LOT of people are making A WHOLE LOTTA money off the entire thing)

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