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Switch to Forum Live View Chris Hayes and heroes
13 months ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 7:43PM #1
solfeggio
solfeggio
Posts: 7,694

Chris Hayes, of The Nation, has caused something of a stir in America because of his Memorial Day comments regarding war, heroism, and politics in which he said he was uncomfortable using the word 'hero' because he felt it basically justified waging war and legitimised all wars.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/201...

Hayes later apologised for the remark.  But I think he meant no disrespect and was just trying to elevate the level of the national discourse.  After all, isn't free speech what America is all about?

www.nj.com/njvoices/index.ssf/2012/05/ms...

Can anyone who is willing to sacrifice his/her life for his/her country automatically be called a hero or heroine?  On the face of it, I would have to say 'yes.'  
 
On the other hand, asking young people to sacrifice their lives in wars which are supposedly wars on 'terror' but which, let's face it, are in reality about which country is to have the oil rights, is terribly wrong.   

It was once said that supporting troops but not the war was like supporting hitmen but not the Mob. 
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13 months ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 9:34PM #2
Roodog
Roodog
Posts: 9,737

May 30, 2012 -- 7:43PM, solfeggio wrote:


Chris Hayes, of The Nation, has caused something of a stir in America because of his Memorial Day comments regarding war, heroism, and politics in which he said he was uncomfortable using the word 'hero' because he felt it basically justified waging war and legitimised all wars.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/201...

Hayes later apologised for the remark.  But I think he meant no disrespect and was just trying to elevate the level of the national discourse.  After all, isn't free speech what America is all about?

www.nj.com/njvoices/index.ssf/2012/05/ms...

Can anyone who is willing to sacrifice his/her life for his/her country automatically be called a hero or heroine?  On the face of it, I would have to say 'yes.'  
 
On the other hand, asking young people to sacrifice their lives in wars which are supposedly wars on 'terror' but which, let's face it, are in reality about which country is to have the oil rights, is terribly wrong.   

It was once said that supporting troops but not the war was like supporting hitmen but not the Mob. 





Having served in the US Army, I take umbridge at the comparison with mafia thugs.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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13 months ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 9:49PM #3
arielg
arielg
Posts: 8,206

Having served in the US Army, I take umbridge at the comparison with mafia thugs.



So, are you saying that you will take umbridge  (or umbrage) about any opinion you don't agree with or like?  What kind of discussion do you expect to have? I guess only people who want to insult you will say anything.
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13 months ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 10:27PM #4
fodaoson
fodaoson
Posts: 10,061

Solfeggio posted:” …Can anyone  who is willing to sacrifice his/her life for his/her country automatically be called a hero or heroine?  On the face of it, I would have to say 'yes.'  
 
On the other hand, asking young people to sacrifice their lives in wars which are supposedly wars on 'terror' but which, let's face it, are in reality about which country is to have the oil rights, is terribly wrong.    

It was once said that supporting troops but not the war was like supporting hitmen but not the Mob.  automatically be called a hero or heroine? “On the other hand, asking young people to sacrifice their lives in wars which are supposedly wars on 'terror' but which, let's face it, are in reality about which country is to have the oil rights, is terribly wrong.    

It was once said that supporting troops but not the war was like supporting hitmen but not the Mob. “


Volunteering for military duty is not necessarily “ willing to sacrifice his/her life for his/her country”   It is trading money for college  or a way to breakout of the cycle of poverty or lower economic situation.  Being in the military, even in a war zone is statistically safer than a17-25 year old to  drive.   And drug use kills more of that age group than Automobiles.  Going to war is not more deadly than staying out of the military.


Solfeggio again,” other hand, asking young people to sacrifice their lives in wars which are supposedly wars on 'terror' but which, let's face it, are in reality about which country is to have the oil rights, is terribly wrong.”   


Your opinion based on your politics.  We are in Afghanistan because of a Terrorist attack on Our nation.  Afghanistan   no oil reserves.  

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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13 months ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 10:31PM #5
TemplarS
TemplarS
Posts: 5,167

The thing is, Solf, without heroes from your country and mine, you might be waking up tomorrow looking at the Japanese flag flying over Wellington.


As long as there are wars worth fighting (and there will be, since it was also once said, peace without justice is no peace at all) it will take brave men and women to fight them.


As for the many wars which are not worth fighting, you need to lay the blame for the bad wars at the proper doorstep.  This is something we have lost in our time; centuries past, at least the generals and kings rode into battle alongside their troops.
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13 months ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:43AM #6
Roodog
Roodog
Posts: 9,737

May 30, 2012 -- 9:49PM, arielg wrote:


Having served in the US Army, I take umbridge at the comparison with mafia thugs.



So, are you saying that you will take umbridge  (or umbrage) about any opinion you don't agree with or like?  What kind of discussion do you expect to have? I guess only people who want to insult you will say anything.




I stand corrected, My computer does not have spell check on B'net.


I still take offence at being likened to thug because I had served my country.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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13 months ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:54AM #7
rabello
rabello
Posts: 17,172

Unfortunately, Chris Hayes ruined an opportunity to make an important point that still needs debating over here.   But, I doubt that many people watch his weekly show on MSNBC.  The hawks on the right turned it into a news item.  He doesn't have the stature of a Chris Hedges, or a Jeremy Scahill, or Norm Chomsky, though.


His UK counterpart, Paul Harris, with The Guardian, and who like Hedges and Scahill was a war correspondent, had this to say:



Hayes was vilified as a peacenik who, of course, had never worn the uniform himself. He was portrayed as someone who was hiding behind the soldiers keeping Americans secure from terrorist harm. Surely, though, it is perfectly sane to ask whether or not America is more or less safe because of the way it has made war for the past ten years.


Did the invasion of Iraq really lessen terrorism around the world? Have the hundreds of thousands of civilian dead in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen really made America more popular? Are the men and women who have carried out those missions engaged in a heroic cause or are they pawns in the mistakes of politicians?





Among the many men and women I met, there was a broad spectrum of debate as to why they they were there. Some were believers and some were not. But it did not really matter. They were comrades-in-arms for each other far more than for any external cause. They were brave, willing to run into gunfire and head into combat. Yet, they generally did it for their buddies, not for the politician who had sent them there.


American soldiers I met were often similar. That makes them heroes in their own personal experiences and in the eyes of their colleagues for whom they will risk their lives. But it does not make the causes in which they fight and die heroic.





The MSNBC host's words were clumsy, but we must be free to ask if America's causes for war are as heroic as its soldiers




See:


Chris Hayes' 'heroes' hazing


www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/ma...
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13 months ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 1:16AM #8
solfeggio
solfeggio
Posts: 7,694

I was an anti-war hippy back in the 1960s, and I'm still anti-war.  I really do think there are always other options.


However, we can all agree that WWII was worth fighting.  It's generally thought of as 'the good war' and for good reason.   We were probably all destined to have to fight Japan, but had things been handled differently after WWI, we might not have seen Hitler emerge as a dictator in Germany.


What I don't understand today is why America is fighting in Afghanistan.  Why do they expect that they can go into that country and win the people over when neither the Soviet Union nor Britain could?
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13 months ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 1:42AM #9
Yavanna
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

May 31, 2012 -- 1:16AM, solfeggio wrote:


I was an anti-war hippy back in the 1960s, and I'm still anti-war.  I really do think there are always other options.


However, we can all agree that WWII was worth fighting.  It's generally thought of as 'the good war' and for good reason.   We were probably all destined to have to fight Japan, but had things been handled differently after WWI, we might not have seen Hitler emerge as a dictator in Germany.


What I don't understand today is why America is fighting in Afghanistan.  Why do they expect that they can go into that country and win the people over when neither the Soviet Union nor Britain could?




I love how NATO invades Afghanistan, but you still blame the United States. As if you don't have anything better to do than troll the U.S. when an international task force is involved.


If you hate the U.S. so much then don't move here. Otherwise if you don't see the rest of us trashing Middle Earth... I mean New Zealand.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien
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13 months ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 1:46AM #10
Yavanna
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

May 30, 2012 -- 9:49PM, arielg wrote:


Having served in the US Army, I take umbridge at the comparison with mafia thugs.



So, are you saying that you will take umbridge  (or umbrage) about any opinion you don't agree with or like?  What kind of discussion do you expect to have? I guess only people who want to insult you will say anything.




As long as we're correcting spelling, you said "bases" instead of "basis" in post #25 of the 10 billion population thread. I wasn't going to mention it because I assumed it was a typo, but since you're going to be snotty to Roodog I felt it was worth bringing up.


Obviously anyone who compares all serving men and women to mafia thugs is not a reasonable person, let alone an intellectual.


Maybe if you'd stop insulting other people you'd get to have one of those discussions you pretend to want.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword. - J.R.R. Tolkien
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