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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:38PM #41
Ken
Posts: 33,860

May 28, 2012 -- 5:45PM, CharikIeia wrote:

Why should I care for US laws?



This thread is about US laws. If you don't care for them, don't contribute.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:40PM #42
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

May 28, 2012 -- 5:45PM, CharikIeia wrote:

I'd believe you if at face value, people weren't campaigning pro marriage as if that were the prime and important topic...


Marriage is not what people are fighting for; it's equality. Marriage is just one part of that issue.


Why should I care for US laws?....


Why should you care about gays getting married? I can find no reason to care - except that their not being able to marry is discriminatory. Gay marriage will have absolutely no effect on my life what so ever. Marriage equality will not change any thing for any heterosexual marriage. So, what's the problem?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:42PM #43
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

May 28, 2012 -- 6:38PM, Ken wrote:


This thread is about US laws. If you don't care for them, don't contribute.



Good advice. It just makes me sick anyway.


Maybe we can talk on once the USA have jumped on the bandwagon and the first glamour is gone.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:50PM #44
Fodaoson
Posts: 10,939

Marriage is not a Human right , it IS a CIVIL right and carries with it other CIVIL rights, such as familial  tax breaks,  familial protection, creating two people as one family unit.   Only a radical  or someone making a poor word choice would call marriage a human right.   In  Germany  at least it was 25 years ago, Legal marriage was  state function and on  US bases  a Chaplain could only perform a rite of marriage if the couple had already  had a civil  marriage.   

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 8:33PM #45
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Human right, civil right - what's the difference?

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 8:58PM #46
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,660

May 28, 2012 -- 8:33PM, Ken wrote:


Human right, civil right - what's the difference?




I don't see much of a difference. Aren't civil rights for human?


What then is a human right?

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 12:58AM #47
Ebon
Posts: 9,835

May 28, 2012 -- 8:33PM, Ken wrote:

Human right, civil right - what's the difference?



There is a difference. One is rights which are universal and accorded through the simple fact of being human. The other are rights accorded by a particular society to citizens of that society. In practice though, the distinction is only of interest to philosophers and legal theorists.


Incidently, Article 12 of the European Convention on Human Rights (which the UK are signatories to and functions as our Bill of Rights) does classify marriage as a human right. So far, it's an undecided legal question whether that includes same-sex marriage but since Cameron (our PM) is, in possibly his only excuse for existing, committed to extending marriage to same-sex couples, it makes little difference (currently, UK same-sex couples have Domestic Partnerships but the law classifies them as marriage in every respect but the very technical).

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 3:41AM #48
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

May 29, 2012 -- 12:58AM, Ebon wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 8:33PM, Ken wrote:

Human right, civil right - what's the difference?


There is a difference. One is rights which are universal and accorded through the simple fact of being human. The other are rights accorded by a particular society to citizens of that society. In practice though, the distinction is only of interest to philosophers and legal theorists.



I think in practice, the distinction boils down to what your own society has agreed upon in its domestic law, and what it has agreed upon when negotiating with other societies.


In the USA, we have the individual gun ownership issue as a civil right. It is not a human right because it is not part of any international rights treaty or declaration. Easy to spot, the difference, isn't it?


By that token, marriage indeed is a human right (part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), with the clearly stated purpose of mandating governments to protect the family as "fundamental unit" of society.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 3:49AM #49
Yavanna
Posts: 3,149

May 28, 2012 -- 1:15PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 11:42AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


DO BETTER.



Okay, next try.


Those who think that out of all the possible issues we face on this planet, getting married is an important one, they have no truly important issues.


Yes, I see how marriage can be a cheap package deal to solve all sorts of real problems, and yes, it would be unfair to offer the package deal only to heterosexuals.


Nonetheless, marriage remains a pointlessness. The way in which the marriage contract differs from separate contracts on all the important issues that were mentioned, is only by money (it's cheaper) and by emotional delusion (it's less sober).


The essence of marriage therefore, IMO, is cheap intoxication.




Do you have anything else to add besides your usual hatred of marriage?

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gloaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.
- J.R.R. Tolkien
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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 4:05AM #50
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

May 29, 2012 -- 3:49AM, Yavanna wrote:


... your usual hatred of marriage?



I don't hate marriage as such, just the general attitude towards marriage :-)

tl;dr
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