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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 2:58PM #421
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:30PM, mytmouse57 wrote:



A: We're splitting hairs. Gay people will continue to have, or adopt, children and raise them, regardless of what you, me or anybody thinks.


I've already told you, as a matter of specifics, as an alternative family structure, I have no beef with that.


B: Once more, citing soft-science "studies" done on sample populations does not impress me. It's a pretty steep call to suggest those four points either simply don't exist, or don't really matter.


In the absence of rational, reasoned arguments and long term, universal proof, simply citing the results of softball studies isn't going to convince many reasonable people of such a sweeping, radical claim.


Again, that strikes me as a quite naive appeal to dubious authority.



All you have to do to get me to agree with you is to present actual valid peer-reviewed studies that prove that what you call the "soft science" studies are wrong. Since when is pediatric medicine considered a "soft science?"

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 5:17PM #422
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


Howdy 


While it appears to be true that the majority of people in the U.S.  support gays getting married when the issue has come to a vote among the people in 32 states they all failed to pass.


The people have spoken, democracy works?



When it comes to Civil or Human Rights the majority does not rule if they vote to restrict such rights. Paragraph 1 if the Fourteenth Amendment states

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Had it been left to majority vote segregation would still exist in southern states and people would still not be allowed to marry individuals of a different race in the 16 states in which anti-miscegenation laws were overturned by SCOTUS in Loving v. Virginia.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

In the six states(?)that currently "allow"  same sex marriages-civil unions all were passed by the state legislatures in what some would claim, with at least  a degree of truth, were backdoor deals made behind closed doors. However other less controversal laws are passed in a similar fashion.



Actually, laws were passed by the legislatures in Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York. There is no evidence that they were back-door deals made behind closed doors. If you have evidence that they were, please present it. In Massachusetts, Iowa, and Connecticut the right of same-sex partners to marry were granted by court decisions.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

If same sex marriages-civil unions are a human-cival right(and I think it is)then I see a problem with such rights being subject to votes and popularity contests-polls.



The Father of the Constitution, James Madison, saw the same problem. In a speech in the House of Representatives proposing the Bill ofr Rights, he wrote:

"The prescriptions in favor of liberty, ought to be leveled against that quarter where the greatest danger lies, namely, that which possesses the highest prerogative of power: But this [is] not found in either the executive or legislative departments of government, but in the body of the people, operating by the majority against the minority.
"It may be thought all paper barriers against the power of the community are too weak to be worthy of attention…yet, as they have a tendency to impress some degree of respect for them, to establish the public opinion in their favor, and rouse the attention of the whole community, it may be one means to control the majority from those acts to which they might be otherwise inclined." -- James Madison: Proposing Bill of Rights to House, June 8, 1789




Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

Since a federal judge has declared a law prohibiting same sex marriage-civil unions as being un-constitutional  it appears that the question will go to the Supreme Court.   I have my doubts has to wether the current Supreme Court will rule to uphold the federal court decision.



Given the current composition of SCOTUS it will most likely be a 5-4 decision. It should be remembered that Justice Kennedy, the swing vote, wrote the majority opinion in Lawrence v. Texas which overturned anti sodomy laws.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

And then there is the Defense Of Marriage Act. 


The law passed both houses of Congress by large majorities and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996.



Things have changed since 1996. The author of the DOMA bill in the House of Representatives, Bob Barr (R GA) believe that the law should be repealed.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

I am not postive but I do believe that the Democrats had majority in both the Senate and the House.  But to pass by a large majority would mean that more than one Democrap voted for the bill.



Republican controlled the House of Representatives from 1994 to 2006 and the Senate from 1994 to 2004.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

However I am fairly certain tha Bill Clinton who signed the bill is a Democrat.



At the time DOMA was signed Clinton opposed same-sex marriage. He has since reversed that opinion.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

So it is not just slack jawwed, inbreed, right-wing, homophobic Christianist Republicans who want to protect the civil-human right of hetro-sexual marriage.



That's an argument from fallacy. Homosexual marriage would in no way affect heterosexual marriages.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

It is my understanding that Mitt Romney has said:


"I remain opposed to same-sex marriage. I believe marriage is an institution for the union of a man and a woman. This has been my long-standing position, and it is not being reviewed or reconsidered."


Which is not suprising since he is a right-wing Mormon.



Denying homosexuals the 1,139 federal statutory provisions classified to the United States Code in which benefits, rights, and privileges are contingent on marital status or in which marital status is a factor is blatant discrimination especially given that it won't affect heterosexual marriage in any way.

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:12PM #423
Stardove
Posts: 15,552

I saw a part of this video on the news last night.  I think this is a very important video for this discussion.  Please take the time to watch then speak.... post that is.




I've also posted the video at USNP.  Posting of same thing is only allowed twice, so this it is folks!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:20PM #424
mountain_man
Posts: 39,684

Now that's a preacher I can get along with. We need more like him.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:28PM #425
IreneAdler
Posts: 2,849

Wow. And Amen!


 


He ‘s a lit*tle dif*fic*ult to list*en to, but I like the mes*sage.


 


Irene

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 7:38PM #426
Amycain
Posts: 4,383


Thanks Stardove, now I can add one more baptist to the list of people not against!! I am glad you posted that!!! and as to what he said AMEN, jesus never talked about it and the old testament "LAW" (that law that we are not supposed to be under anymore since we are saved by grace) books that do mention it are the same ones that prohibit bacon and seafood etc. no christain lives by those anymore but OMG gotta keep them anti-homo laws right???!!! NOT



So thanks for posting a preacher with guts speaking out in spite of the opinions of his collegues!!!


Jun 12, 2012 -- 7:12PM, Stardove wrote:


I saw a part of this video on the news last night.  I think this is a very important video for this discussion.  Please take the time to watch then speak.... post that is.




I've also posted the video at USNP.  Posting of same thing is only allowed twice, so this it is folks!





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:08PM #427
Stardove
Posts: 15,552

You are most welcome.  I sat in amazement to hear a Baptist minister coming out in favor of President Obama's support of gay marriage.  I believe this is a powerful message all those who believe LGBT are not created equal need to hear.


Let me add being raised in the south I grew up going to, belonging to Southern Baptist churches. 


When I was a child I spoke as a child....time to put away childish view points...imho.

Beliefnet Community Wide Moderator ~ Peace Love Stardove
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:11PM #428
IreneAdler
Posts: 2,849

Side question- on the video- what is the symbol on the pulpit?


Thanks.


Irene.  

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:13PM #429
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

That guy is amazing. :)

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 8:15PM #430
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Jun 12, 2012 -- 8:11PM, IreneAdler wrote:


Side question- on the video- what is the symbol on the pulpit?


Thanks.


Irene.  



It looks like and Egyptian Ankh, although I have seen Christians use it as a stylised cross.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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