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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:03PM #401
Thetwofish
Posts: 581

MM:


(1) Once again, I'm not claiming gays can't raise children well. Obviously, they do. As do step and adoptive parents.


Extensive resarch, not to mention, thousands of years of human experience demonstates:



(2) *Having both a mother and a father is important.



(3) *The differences between men and women result in complimentary strenghts, when it comes to parenting.



(4) *An opposite gender parent is important.



(5) *The biological parent-child bond is real and important.



(6) I'm not the one here denying something obvious. (gays can and do raise well-adusted children.)



(7) I'm merely pointing out, that trying to minimize, or completely dismiss, those four above points is extremely naive -- especially when all one is basing that assumption on is soft-science resarch in only the last couple of decades.



1.  You are saying that they can't raise children "as well" as heterosexual couples.  If you don't think so, then why trot out your "studies"?


2.  I don't believe anyone would dispute that.


3.  Sometimes...but not always.  Life is much more complicated than you seem to realize.  Who's naive again?


4.  Sometimes...but not always.


5.  Well Duh!!!  But not always.  Some children are bonded far more with their non-biological parents than those whose biological mommies and daddies are at home.


6.  Sure you are.  Or else why rebut that?  That's what WE'VE been saying.  Again, Duh!


7.  Nobody has done that.


Peace


<'{{><

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:23PM #402
mountain_man
Posts: 39,707

Jun 11, 2012 -- 11:33AM, Ken wrote:

Exactly. Nobody is trying to dismiss those points. They have been dismissed once and for all and now repose in the trash heap of dead hypotheses.


Some can't let go of those "points" since they have a huge emotional investment in them. They need those points to be valid since their whole psyche rests on them.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 6:49PM #403
Amycain
Posts: 4,383

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:48AM, mytmouse57 wrote:
 an example of a guy (or 1,000 guys) doing something horrible isn't really relevant to the main point -- general principle of the importance of both a mother and a father.



well you don't always have a mom and a dad with heterosexual parentage, plenty of women get pregnant from one night stands or etc., and like my mom pointed out in her case her mother died when she was 8 so she didn't have a mother most of her childhood and my point about what a total jackass my daughters father was is relevent she is much better off without him and with her outstanding grandfather as her male influence she'd be in worse shape would be having another totally negative influence if her real father was in her life, it would be a hindrance not a help.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 6:52PM #404
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Only thing a child needs is loving support from an adult. Does not matter if that adult is related by blood or not. All the child is aware of is being loved cared for. Hetero or homosexual is irrelevant.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 7:57PM #405
TRUECHRISTIAN
Posts: 1,231

Howdy 


While it appears to be true that the majority of people in the U.S.  support gays getting married when the issue has come to a vote among the people in 32 states they all failed to pass.


The people have spoken, democracy works? 


In the six states(?)that currently "allow"  same sex marriages-civil unions all were passed by the state legislatures in what some would claim, with at least  a degree of truth, were backdoor deals made behind closed doors. However other less controversal laws are passed in a similar fashion. 


If same sex marriages-civil unions are a human-cival right(and I think it is)then I see a problem with such rights being subject to votes and popularity contests-polls.  


Since a federal judge has declared a law prohibiting same sex marriage-civil unions as being un-constitutional  it appears that the question will go to the Supreme Court.   I have my doubts has to wether the current Supreme Court will rule to uphold the federal court decision.


And then there is the Defense Of Marriage Act. 


The law passed both houses of Congress by large majorities and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. 


I am not postive but I do believe that the Democrats had majority in both the Senate and the House.  But to pass by a large majority would mean that more than one Democrap voted for the bill.  


However I am fairly certain tha Bill Clinton who signed the bill is a Democrat. 


So it is not just slack jawwed, inbreed, right-wing, homophobic Christianist Republicans who want to protect the civil-human right of hetro-sexual marriage.  


It is my understanding that Mitt Romney has said:


"I remain opposed to same-sex marriage. I believe marriage is an institution for the union of a man and a woman. This has been my long-standing position, and it is not being reviewed or reconsidered."[


Which is not suprising since he is a right-wing Mormon. 


 

I could be wrong.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 8:14PM #406
Amycain
Posts: 4,383

well I guess we are all opinion holders and mine is that in the near future all of those people opposed will find themselves on the wrong side of history.


Marriage should be between 2 adult sentient, self-cognizant beings. A goat cannot consent. Nor a lampost. & A child lacks the maturity for informed decision making which is why the law has them under parental control.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 8:30PM #407
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,281

TRUECHRISTIAN:  The people have spoken, democracy works?


If democracy told you to jump headfirst into a nuclear reactor, would you?

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 8:50PM #408
chevy956
Posts: 1,961

Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:

Howdy 


While it appears to be true that the majority of people in the U.S.  support gays getting married when the issue has come to a vote among the people in 32 states they all failed to pass.


The people have spoken, democracy works? 


In the six states(?)that currently "allow"  same sex marriages-civil unions all were passed by the state legislatures in what some would claim, with at least  a degree of truth, were backdoor deals made behind closed doors. However other less controversal laws are passed in a similar fashion. 


If same sex marriages-civil unions are a human-cival right(and I think it is)then I see a problem with such rights being subject to votes and popularity contests-polls.  


Since a federal judge has declared a law prohibiting same sex marriage-civil unions as being un-constitutional  it appears that the question will go to the Supreme Court.   I have my doubts has to wether the current Supreme Court will rule to uphold the federal court decision.


And then there is the Defense Of Marriage Act. 


The law passed both houses of Congress by large majorities and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. 


I am not postive but I do believe that the Democrats had majority in both the Senate and the House.  But to pass by a large majority would mean that more than one Democrap voted for the bill.  


However I am fairly certain tha Bill Clinton who signed the bill is a Democrat. 


So it is not just slack jawwed, inbreed, right-wing, homophobic Christianist Republicans who want to protect the civil-human right of hetro-sexual marriage.  


It is my understanding that Mitt Romney has said:


"I remain opposed to same-sex marriage. I believe marriage is an institution for the union of a man and a woman. This has been my long-standing position, and it is not being reviewed or reconsidered."[


Which is not suprising since he is a right-wing Mormon. 


 


The people who voted for the bill were wrong. It wiil eventually be overruled or neutered into meaninglessness for the same reason that the various miscegenation laws were overturned- they were ultimately based on religious belief, not common law or our Constitution. We are not a theocracy, but a democratic republic. Some loud, novelty sect Christians have a hard time understanding that concept. They will find themselves becoming increasingly irrelevent to American society. Their homophobia is part of their last sad bleatings.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:02PM #409
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Jun 11, 2012 -- 7:57PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:





No one has the right to vote away someone else's rights. That is not how things work in a democratic republic.


Being a bigot does not give someone the right to take away or deny a citizens civil rights.


This is not a theocracy and no one should be denied rights based on someone else's religion.


I bet you would not like having your rights taken away because of someone else's religion.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:09PM #410
REteach
Posts: 14,833

People who think the US version of democracy means that it is OK for a majority to oppress a minority don't know much about US history. It isn't that majorities have not tried to oppress minorities, but that the way the constitution is written, they simply don't have the right to do so.


Also, I would like to know what kids never see any adults of the opposite sex.  This idea that one has to have a mother and a father is bizarre and displays an amazing lack of knowledge about life expectancies until quite recently.  


I know a nun whose mother died giving birth to her brother. She was brought up by her dad and his two brothers.  The idea that she had no female role models is ridiculous.  

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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