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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 4:29PM #391
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Jun 10, 2012 -- 4:22PM, Ken wrote:

It's like debating fundamentalist Christians who insist that the earth is six thousand years old. They can't understand that the matter is settled and there is no longer a debate.


There are many such groups; New Agers and their junk science, believers in chiropractic, acupuncture, ESP, and all that stuff. Maintaining the belief is more important than finding the truth. For them it is simply impossible to not believe.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:37AM #392
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:12PM, Ebon wrote:


Except that's not what the research says. At all. The American Psychological Association, American Academy of Pediatrics and British Psychologica Society all say that kids raised in same-sex households turn out every bit as well-developed as those raised in opposite-sex households. I'll be nice and assume you're mistaken rather than consciously lying but either way, the research does not say what you claim it does.





Once again, I'm not claiming gays can't raise children well. Obviously, they do. As do step and adoptive parents.


Extensive resarch, not to mention, thousands of years of human experience demonstates:


*Having both a mother and a father is important.


*The differences between men and women result in complimentary strenghts, when it comes to parenting.


*An opposite gender parent is important.


*The biological parent-child bond is real and important.


I'm not the one here denying something obvious. (gays can and do raise well-adusted children.)


I'm merely pointing out, that trying to minimize, or completely dismiss, those four above points is extremely naive -- especially when all one is basing that assumption on is soft-science resarch in only the last couple of decades.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:43AM #393
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 9, 2012 -- 7:40PM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:23PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, TPaine wrote:


Your claims so far are based on opinion, yet you refuse to accept any evidence that runs contrary to your opinion. Show me a peer-reviewed study that contradicts this abstract and the report that6 accompanies it. Or are pediatricians also unqualified to express a valid position?

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes. Link



You're whistling past the graveyard here, IMO.


I said, yes, of course, gay parenting can work. So does step/adoptive parenting. (I'm both a step and adoptive parent. I have five children. One is biological.)



Good for you, Mouse. There are children out there that need parents like you so they can be part of a family. You gave four children other than your biological one a home they may not have had were it not for you.


Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:23PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Cite all the studies you wish.


Denyting the reality of:


*The differences between men and women, as they compliment and relate to parenting.


*The importance of both a mother and father.


*The biological parent-child bond.


*The importance of an opposite-sex parent.


Is naive and stupid.


Furthermore, those exact fields of study you cite -- have studied and confiremed the reality and importance of all those things. If you don't belive me, look it up.



You make claims, but you don't supply the evidence to support it. Present the evidence. Knowledge increases as time passes. Some of the sources I have cited did have contrary views years ago but recent information has caused them to change their views. However, you have failed to provide any evidence that the article I linked above is wrong other than your opinion. I guess in your world any individual or organ that disagrees with you is naive and stupid.





Once again, I'm not the one trying to deny something obvious. (that gays can raise children)


I'm pointing out that I'm incredulous -- and for good reason -- about the flippant dismissal of something equally obvious -- those above four points.


In specific instance, gays make great parents.


In specific instance, step/adoptive parents are great too. (Thanks for the compliment, btw, I hope I'm doing some good, and making a difference. Like any parent, I go day by day.)


As are grandparents, aunts, uncles or family freinds who might end up raising kids if Mom and Dad are completely inept or horrible parents, get killed in a car wreck... and so on and on.


However, again, if you're trying to claim that in the general sense, that children being raised by happily married, biological mother-father parents don't have advantages that others do not..


... then all I can say is, I've got a bridge for sale.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:48AM #394
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:16PM, Amycain wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, mytmouse57 wrote:
•Having both a mother and father doesn't really isn't important. (Please note... as I said above, those same fields have also produced volumes of research on related subjects, such as the vital importance a father plays in the healthy development of a girl, and her relationships with men later on.)



Really??!!! Unless he is a molesting perv or abusive or a male chavanist jackass, which some of those are excellent actors, take the man who brutally raped me when i was 24 he was a friendly neighbor I met around the neighborhood who after many street conversations invited me to have dinner with him & his wife, only when I got inside their house dsid I find out that his wife was out of town, his house looked like the cozy little homemaker home he was about 40 so they had been married a long time . . .family photos and doilies everywhere but he wouldn't let me leave dragged me up the stairs face first, apparently his happy little homemaker wife had no idea what a monster she was married to.


And I also know for a fact that my daughter is better off not knowing her jackass of a father(not the rapist that was years ago) he was an obnoxious, chip on his shoulder drunk .


However my daughter does have as a male role model a terrific wonderful grandfather, & with that she is lightyears better off than the jackass!!!


oh and by the way I grew up with a terrific Dad and I am a lesbian.  My daughter is a heterosexual (well she's going to be 12 next month but she has always liked only boys and she knows about my sexuality.)  I was always a lesbian I was drunk and suicidal the night I spent with her father I was afraid I would kill myself if I went home that night That's how I ended up with her father, also had only lived here a short time and hadn't found the places to meet other gay people yet, by the way I have been sober , it will be 8 years in august while I'm sure her father is either dead from something alcohol related or still an active drunk.





I'm sorry for your experience.


My wife is also a sexual assault survivor, and was also the victim of a man who put up a good "nice guy" front.


However an example of a guy (or 1,000 guys) doing something horrible isn't really relevant to the main point -- general principle of the importance of both a mother and a father. And, in general, the advantages of children who have both a biological Mom and Dad over those who do not.


Basing the relevance of that axiom on some men's horrible acts is no more logical than people who draw all their conclusions about gays, based upon the outrageous behaivor of a few.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:31AM #395
TPaine
Posts: 9,233

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:43AM, mytmouse57 wrote:



Once again, I'm not the one trying to deny something obvious. (that gays can raise children)


I'm pointing out that I'm incredulous -- and for good reason -- about the flippant dismissal of something equally obvious -- those above four points.


In specific instance, gays make great parents.


In specific instance, step/adoptive parents are great too. (Thanks for the compliment, btw, I hope I'm doing some good, and making a difference. Like any parent, I go day by day.)


As are grandparents, aunts, uncles or family freinds who might end up raising kids if Mom and Dad are completely inept or horrible parents, get killed in a car wreck... and so on and on.


However, again, if you're trying to claim that in the general sense, that children being raised by happily married, biological mother-father parents don't have advantages that others do not..


... then all I can say is, I've got a bridge for sale.



All I'm saying is that actual studies done by medical professionals have found that children raised by loving, committed same-sex couples turn out no differently than children raised by loving, committed male-female couples. If you can show studies done by actual professionals that refute those findings, please share them.

"It is always to be taken for granted, that those who oppose an equality of rights never mean the exclusion should take place on themselves." -- Thomas Paine: Dissertations on First Principles of Government (July 7, 1795)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 10:35AM #396
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:37AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

...I'm merely pointing out, that trying to minimize, or completely dismiss, those four above points is extremely naive .....


The part you are not understanding is that those "points" are naive, based on a deep seated bias, not based on facts, and based only on emotions. Not one of those "points" are valid ones.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:33AM #397
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:35AM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:37AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

...I'm merely pointing out, that trying to minimize, or completely dismiss, those four above points is extremely naive .....


The part you are not understanding is that those "points" are naive, based on a deep seated bias, not based on facts, and based only on emotions. Not one of those "points" are valid ones.



Exactly. Nobody is trying to dismiss those points. They have been dismissed once and for all and now repose in the trash heap of dead hypotheses.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:47AM #398
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,399

Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:31AM, TPaine wrote:


Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:43AM, mytmouse57 wrote:



Once again, I'm not the one trying to deny something obvious. (that gays can raise children)


I'm pointing out that I'm incredulous -- and for good reason -- about the flippant dismissal of something equally obvious -- those above four points.


In specific instance, gays make great parents.


In specific instance, step/adoptive parents are great too. (Thanks for the compliment, btw, I hope I'm doing some good, and making a difference. Like any parent, I go day by day.)


As are grandparents, aunts, uncles or family freinds who might end up raising kids if Mom and Dad are completely inept or horrible parents, get killed in a car wreck... and so on and on.


However, again, if you're trying to claim that in the general sense, that children being raised by happily married, biological mother-father parents don't have advantages that others do not..


... then all I can say is, I've got a bridge for sale.



All I'm saying is that actual studies done by medical professionals have found that children raised by loving, committed same-sex couples turn out no differently than children raised by loving, committed male-female couples. If you can show studies done by actual professionals that refute those findings, please share them.





Do NOT hold your breath waiting - for mouse or anyone else to do so.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:49AM #399
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,399

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:37AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Once again, I'm not claiming gays can't raise children well. Obviously, they do. As do step and adoptive parents.


Extensive resarch, not to mention, thousands of years of human experience demonstates:


*Having both a mother and a father is important.


*The differences between men and women result in complimentary strenghts, when it comes to parenting.


*An opposite gender parent is important.


*The biological parent-child bond is real and important.


I'm not the one here denying something obvious. (gays can and do raise well-adusted children.)


I'm merely pointing out, that trying to minimize, or completely dismiss, those four above points is extremely naive -- especially when all one is basing that assumption on is soft-science resarch in only the last couple of decades.





And, "once again", an ENTIRE post off-topic. Every single paragraph is about 'the chilluns', and NOT one word about MARRIAGE EQUALITY!


Mouse, if you don't have anything to say about the topic, why post all these irrelevancies?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 11:54AM #400
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,399

Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:48AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 an example of a guy (or 1,000 guys) doing something horrible isn't really relevant to the main point -- general principle of the importance of both a mother and a father.



Actually, mouse, I hate/LOVE to keep on pointing out that the "point" o f this thread is the support for MARRIAGE EQUALITY, and this is a separate issue from the institution of parenthood.


And, until having/raising children ever becomes a requirement of marriage, then all your railroading of "the point" is moot.


Jun 11, 2012 -- 12:48AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

 And, in general, the advantages of children who have both a biological Mom and Dad over those who do not.



Nope. Your delusional imaginings are STILL not "the point" of this thread. And they never will be.

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