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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 7:31PM #381
Thetwofish
Posts: 547

Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:16PM, Amycain wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, mytmouse57 wrote:
•Having both a mother and father doesn't really isn't important. (Please note... as I said above, those same fields have also produced volumes of research on related subjects, such as the vital importance a father plays in the healthy development of a girl, and her relationships with men later on.)



Really??!!! Unless he is a molesting perv or abusive or a male chavanist jackass, which some of those are excellent actors, take the man who brutally raped me when i was 24 he was a friendly neighbor I met around the neighborhood who after many street conversations invited me to have dinner with him & his wife, only when I got inside their house dsid I find out that his wife was out of town, his house looked like the cozy little homemaker home he was about 40 so they had been married a long time . . .family photos and doilies everywhere but he wouldn't let me leave dragged me up the stairs face first, apparently his happy little homemaker wife had no idea what a monster she was married to.


And I also know for a fact that my daughter is better off not knowing her jackass of a father(not the rapist that was years ago) he was an obnoxious, chip on his shoulder drunk .


However my daughter does have as a male role model a terrific wonderful grandfather, & with that she is lightyears better off than the jackass!!!


oh and by the way I grew up with a terrific Dad and I am a lesbian.  My daughter is a heterosexual (well she's going to be 12 next month but she has always liked only boys and she knows about my sexuality.)  I was always a lesbian I was drunk and suicidal the night I spent with her father I was afraid I would kill myself if I went home that night That's how I ended up with her father, also had only lived here a short time and hadn't found the places to meet other gay people yet, by the way I have been sober , it will be 8 years in august while I'm sure her father is either dead from something alcohol related or still an active drunk.





First, what a horrible thing to have endured.  Hugs.


And I would like to add that my father was an alcoholic, never kept a job and my mother divorced him when I was in second grade.  My mother raised me.  My father had no influence on my life except what not to be.  He wasn't a bad man...he just loved his liquor.  Died at 57.


I have no ill effects from not having my father in my life.  I am happy and healthy and have never dwelled on it or felt sorry for myself.


Peace


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 7:40PM #382
TPaine
Posts: 9,034

Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:23PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 4:40PM, TPaine wrote:


Your claims so far are based on opinion, yet you refuse to accept any evidence that runs contrary to your opinion. Show me a peer-reviewed study that contradicts this abstract and the report that6 accompanies it. Or are pediatricians also unqualified to express a valid position?

A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children’s optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes. Link



You're whistling past the graveyard here, IMO.


I said, yes, of course, gay parenting can work. So does step/adoptive parenting. (I'm both a step and adoptive parent. I have five children. One is biological.)



Good for you, Mouse. There are children out there that need parents like you so they can be part of a family. You gave four children other than your biological one a home they may not have had were it not for you.


Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:23PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Cite all the studies you wish.


Denyting the reality of:


*The differences between men and women, as they compliment and relate to parenting.


*The importance of both a mother and father.


*The biological parent-child bond.


*The importance of an opposite-sex parent.


Is naive and stupid.


Furthermore, those exact fields of study you cite -- have studied and confiremed the reality and importance of all those things. If you don't belive me, look it up.



You make claims, but you don't supply the evidence to support it. Present the evidence. Knowledge increases as time passes. Some of the sources I have cited did have contrary views years ago but recent information has caused them to change their views. However, you have failed to provide any evidence that the article I linked above is wrong other than your opinion. I guess in your world any individual or organ that disagrees with you is naive and stupid.

"When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am a friend of its happiness: When these things can be said, then may the country boast its constitution and its government." -- Thomas Paine: The Rights Of Man (1791)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 9:05PM #383
Amycain
Posts: 4,380

Thanks for the hug!!!  :)



Jun 9, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Thetwofish wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:16PM, Amycain wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, mytmouse57 wrote:
•Having both a mother and father doesn't really isn't important. (Please note... as I said above, those same fields have also produced volumes of research on related subjects, such as the vital importance a father plays in the healthy development of a girl, and her relationships with men later on.)



Really??!!! Unless he is a molesting perv or abusive or a male chavanist jackass, which some of those are excellent actors, take the man who brutally raped me when i was 24 he was a friendly neighbor I met around the neighborhood who after many street conversations invited me to have dinner with him & his wife, only when I got inside their house dsid I find out that his wife was out of town, his house looked like the cozy little homemaker home he was about 40 so they had been married a long time . . .family photos and doilies everywhere but he wouldn't let me leave dragged me up the stairs face first, apparently his happy little homemaker wife had no idea what a monster she was married to.


And I also know for a fact that my daughter is better off not knowing her jackass of a father(not the rapist that was years ago) he was an obnoxious, chip on his shoulder drunk .


However my daughter does have as a male role model a terrific wonderful grandfather, & with that she is lightyears better off than the jackass!!!


oh and by the way I grew up with a terrific Dad and I am a lesbian.  My daughter is a heterosexual (well she's going to be 12 next month but she has always liked only boys and she knows about my sexuality.)  I was always a lesbian I was drunk and suicidal the night I spent with her father I was afraid I would kill myself if I went home that night That's how I ended up with her father, also had only lived here a short time and hadn't found the places to meet other gay people yet, by the way I have been sober , it will be 8 years in august while I'm sure her father is either dead from something alcohol related or still an active drunk.





First, what a horrible thing to have endured.  Hugs.


And I would like to add that my father was an alcoholic, never kept a job and my mother divorced him when I was in second grade.  My mother raised me.  My father had no influence on my life except what not to be.  He wasn't a bad man...he just loved his liquor.  Died at 57.


I have no ill effects from not having my father in my life.  I am happy and healthy and have never dwelled on it or felt sorry for myself.


Peace


<'{{><





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 9:08PM #384
REteach
Posts: 13,540

Looking through PubMed:


Am Psychol. 2009 Nov;64(8):727-36.

Children of lesbian and gay parents: psychology, law, and policy.


Patterson CJ.


Abstract


Legal and policy questions relevant to the lives of lesbian and gay parents and their children have recently been subjects of vigorous debate. Among the issues for which psychological research has been seen as particularly relevant are questions regarding child custody after divorce,same-sex marriage, adoption, and foster care. This article provides an overview of the current legal terrain for lesbian and gay parents and their children in the United States today, an overview of relevant social science research, and some commentary on the interface between the two. It is concluded that research findings on lesbian and gay parents and their children provide no warrant for legal discrimination against these families.


Copyright 2009 by the American Psychological Association



We can go transcultural


Encephale. 2012 Feb;38(1):10-5. Epub 2011 Jul 5.

[Homosexual parenthood and child development: present data].


[Article in French]

Fond G, Franc N, Purper-Ouakil D.


Abstract


INTRODUCTION:


The aim of this article is to provide an overview of existing studies on gay and lesbian parenthood and child development. Although 200,000 to 300,000 children could be concerned in 2010 in France, there is a lack of research on this issue in our country.


BACKGROUND:


Research among children raised by homosexual parents involves methodological issues, such as defining homosexual families, sampling cases and controls, and choosing structured or semi-structured evaluations. The fact that homosexual marriage, adoption and insemination are not presently legal in France could explain that only one study has been conducted in France in 2000 among 58 children raided by homosexual parents. This study concluded that these children did not show an increased rate of behavior or anxiety disorders.


LITERATURE FINDINGS:


Concerns about lesbian parenting have focused on the absence of a father, the homosexual orientation of the mother, and their negative consequences on the development of the children. Research on parenting and child rearing has repeatedly compared lesbian and heterosexual families, and in the last 30 years a growing body of studies on lesbian parents and the development of their children has been published. Studies about child development, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender role behavior, emotional/behavioral development, social relationships and cognitive functioning showed no difference between children of lesbian mothers and those of heterosexual parents. Likewise, parental functioning, the mothers' psychological health and maternal skills were not significantly different among lesbian mothers than among heterosexual mothers. In studies concerning gay fathers, findings generally indicate no differences in sexual orientation, socialization, or psychological outcomes in children of gay fathers compared to children of heterosexual fathers. However, the first study on the adult attachment style dimensions of adult women who had gay or bisexual fathers suggested that they were significantly less comfortable with closeness and intimacy, less able to trust and depend on others, and experienced more anxiety in relationships than women with heterosexual fathers. This survey has not been argued among lesbian families or coparentality.


DISCUSSION:


Variables related to family processes, such as relationship quality, are currently considered more important predictors of children's adjustment in homosexual families than sexual orientation. The major part of the literature focused on children aged four to 16 and the small sample size (often less than 30 children) limit the validity of these data. However, very little is known about psychological characteristics or well-being of adult children of lesbian and gay parents, and research should be pursued in the future. Social relationships of children raised byhomosexual families, their experience of difference, and the discrimination are also likely to vary with the culture of each country and was not evaluated to our knowledge to date in cross-cultural studies using standardized questionnaires.


CONCLUSION:


Our practice must find new reference marks to understand the stakes and the difficulties of these configurations for a better empathy with the child and his/her family.




Hum Reprod. 2011 Jul;26(7):1609-15. Epub 2011 Apr 14.

Evaluating the welfare of the child in same-sex families.


Pennings G.


Source


Bioethics Institute Ghent, Ghent University, Blandijnberg 2, Gent, Belgium. 




Abstract


Within the field of medically assisted reproduction, the welfare of the child is advanced as the major argument to decide the acceptability of certain applications. This argument, however, needs a complex framework in order to be understood and used properly. The effect of empirical evidence regarding the welfare of the child on people's judgments about the acceptability of same-sex families will differ for utilitarians and deontologists. Deontologists who are opposed to same-sex families will not change their mind when confronted with reassuring evidence. However, utilitarians also frequently use the evidence wrongly or draw the wrong conclusions. The reasonable welfare standard is put forward to avoid counterintuitive judgments and to block comparative reasoning that may follow from the use of heterosexual families as a control in follow-up research. Finally, a number of problems related to the use of parental sexual orientation as a criterion are discussed. The discrimination against same-sex families will not be overturned by empirical evidence about the welfare of the childrenChildren in same-sex families are generally doing well but their situation could be improved if their parents' relationship were to be socially and legally recognized.




Or we can turn to that organization of professionals who apparently hate children and cannot be trusted with research--the American Academy of Pediatrics

Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.19 When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.





So, basically, those who base their bigotry on cries of "what about the children?!" are the ones who are actually causing damage to the children. 




I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 9:18PM #385
REteach
Posts: 13,540

(((Amy))) Glad you survived and thrived!



I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 10:18PM #386
mountain_man
Posts: 38,031

Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:08PM, REteach wrote:

Looking through PubMed....


This is one of those discussions where the facts are irrelevant to one side. Some are simply unable, not unwilling but unable, to accept the facts. Sadly, your post, the very interesting article, and your efforts will be for naught.


There's more on the topic though:


Contrary to assertions from people opposed to same-sex parenting, we found that the 17-year-olds scored higher in psychological adjustment in areas of competency and lower in problem behaviors than the normative age-matched sample of kids raised in traditional families with a mom and a dad," says researcher Nanette Gartrell, MD, the Williams distinguished scholar at the University of California Los Angeles School of Law.


Source.


But, as I said, a certain group of people cannot accept scientific studies such as that one and the one you mentioned. It's not possible for them since it would create a disturbing dissonance that they are unable to deal with.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 10:31PM #387
REteach
Posts: 13,540

True.  James Alison, a gay Catholic priest and theologian, was once jointly sponsored to present by my Catholic church and a local Church of Christ.  He noted that opinions formed from emotion are not easily changed by facts.  



My journey out of bigotry began in the early 1980s.  Polls would seem to indicate that others in the population are making the same journey.  It does take a while. Still, I have to wonder about those who are holding on to the railing, screaming and yelling that they don't want to join the rest of us.



Actually, as I type that, I remember a similar situation in my own life. I was young and we had a baby sitter.  A tornado watch was announced.  I thought it was a tornado warning. I went down in the basement and grabbed ahold of a pole and had a total hysterical meltdown. My mom finally had to come home and calm me down.  That is what they remind me of--an 8 year old misinterpreting something and having a completely insane reaction as a result.  

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 11:02PM #388
Thetwofish
Posts: 547

It was my pleasure...thought you might need it Smile


Peace


<'{{><


 


Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:05PM, Amycain wrote:


Thanks for the hug!!!  :)



Jun 9, 2012 -- 7:31PM, Thetwofish wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:16PM, Amycain wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:39PM, mytmouse57 wrote:
•Having both a mother and father doesn't really isn't important. (Please note... as I said above, those same fields have also produced volumes of research on related subjects, such as the vital importance a father plays in the healthy development of a girl, and her relationships with men later on.)



Really??!!! Unless he is a molesting perv or abusive or a male chavanist jackass, which some of those are excellent actors, take the man who brutally raped me when i was 24 he was a friendly neighbor I met around the neighborhood who after many street conversations invited me to have dinner with him & his wife, only when I got inside their house dsid I find out that his wife was out of town, his house looked like the cozy little homemaker home he was about 40 so they had been married a long time . . .family photos and doilies everywhere but he wouldn't let me leave dragged me up the stairs face first, apparently his happy little homemaker wife had no idea what a monster she was married to.


And I also know for a fact that my daughter is better off not knowing her jackass of a father(not the rapist that was years ago) he was an obnoxious, chip on his shoulder drunk .


However my daughter does have as a male role model a terrific wonderful grandfather, & with that she is lightyears better off than the jackass!!!


oh and by the way I grew up with a terrific Dad and I am a lesbian.  My daughter is a heterosexual (well she's going to be 12 next month but she has always liked only boys and she knows about my sexuality.)  I was always a lesbian I was drunk and suicidal the night I spent with her father I was afraid I would kill myself if I went home that night That's how I ended up with her father, also had only lived here a short time and hadn't found the places to meet other gay people yet, by the way I have been sober , it will be 8 years in august while I'm sure her father is either dead from something alcohol related or still an active drunk.





First, what a horrible thing to have endured.  Hugs.


And I would like to add that my father was an alcoholic, never kept a job and my mother divorced him when I was in second grade.  My mother raised me.  My father had no influence on my life except what not to be.  He wasn't a bad man...he just loved his liquor.  Died at 57.


I have no ill effects from not having my father in my life.  I am happy and healthy and have never dwelled on it or felt sorry for myself.


Peace


<'{{><









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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 11:32PM #389
Amycain
Posts: 4,380

Thanks REteach!  Smile

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 4:22PM #390
Ken
Posts: 33,860

Jun 9, 2012 -- 10:18PM, mountain_man wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:08PM, REteach wrote:

Looking through PubMed....


This is one of those discussions where the facts are irrelevant to one side. Some are simply unable, not unwilling but unable, to accept the facts. Sadly, your post, the very interesting article, and your efforts will be for naught.



It's like debating fundamentalist Christians who insist that the earth is six thousand years old. They can't understand that the matter is settled and there is no longer a debate.

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