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Switch to Forum Live View Strong Support for Gay Marriage Now Exceeds Strong Opposition
2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 11:38AM #31
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,374

May 26, 2012 -- 2:46PM, karbie wrote:


The year I got married, there was a glitch in the phone book. When you called the Marriage Bureau, you were connected to Mental Health instead. :)


The only "luxury" I can see involved is granting same-sex partners the same insurance benefits offered to married partners today.


That would eventually mean being able to draw on your spouse's Social Security and/or pensions. I imagine that one is going to be a hell of a test case.


Civil unions should have been allowed a long time ago. It's up to individual sects and churches about religious ceremonies.


When you think of all the young gays who have killed themselves to escape relentless bullying, it's one thing to say "It gets better". To have them actually witness a shift in attitudes, to be able to see that there is hope of being considered just another human being is important.






Karbie,


These so-called "civil" unions are a legal mess of inequality. The nation already has civil marriage, and full, equal participation in that societal institution would confer precisely the exact same benefits, rights, privileges and obligations. These "civil" unions do NOT do that - do not even come close. The exist in only a handful of States, are not the SAME  from State-to-State, are not PORTABLE from State-to-State, and many States have outlawed/banned them altogether, or "any relatinoship RESEMBLING marriage" as well.


Separate and un-equal is NOT the answer.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 11:42AM #32
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,374

May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 24, 2012 -- 6:27PM, solfeggio wrote:


Because they are human beings, gay people deserve the same rights and privileges as other human beings...



This kind of reasoning is stupid.



In what way?


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Marriage is not a human right



The US Supreme Court has - on 14 separate occasions - called marriage a right. It is a CIVIL right, and it is governemd by civil laws.


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

getting tax breaks is not a human right.



When the married 'betterosexuals' give them up, married gay people will too.


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

What about property rights?



"Property rights" are covered under the "effects that flow from marriage". They have to do with inheriting/dividing up such property. Would you deny them to heterosexuals?


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

And the disenfranchisements from being poor are MUCH MORE RELEVANT than the disenfranchisements from not being able to marry, if you would like to put things into perspective just a little bit!



Last time I checked, even POOR people were allowed to get married. So long as they're heterosexual. (Get it yet?)


DO BETTER.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 11:46AM #33
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,374

May 25, 2012 -- 5:19PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 25, 2012 -- 11:01AM, Ebon wrote:


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Marriage is not a human right


Loving v. Virginia defined marriage as a "fundemental right".



What in heavens is 'Loving v. Virginia', and what relevance does it have?





If you do not know what Loving v. Virginia is (google can be YOUR friend too!), you SHOULD. It has great relevance to this issue, not the least of which is that it established marriage as a civil right in America, and the other significant relevance is the effect of the Full Faith & Credit Clause of the US Constitution.


LOOK IT UP!


Better not to display your ignorance of the topic like that before you type.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 1:15PM #34
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

May 28, 2012 -- 11:42AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


DO BETTER.



Okay, next try.


Those who think that out of all the possible issues we face on this planet, getting married is an important one, they have no truly important issues.


Yes, I see how marriage can be a cheap package deal to solve all sorts of real problems, and yes, it would be unfair to offer the package deal only to heterosexuals.


Nonetheless, marriage remains a pointlessness. The way in which the marriage contract differs from separate contracts on all the important issues that were mentioned, is only by money (it's cheaper) and by emotional delusion (it's less sober).


The essence of marriage therefore, IMO, is cheap intoxication.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 2:04PM #35
mountain_man
Posts: 38,737

May 28, 2012 -- 1:15PM, CharikIeia wrote:

Those who think that out of all the possible issues we face on this planet, getting married is an important one, they have no truly important issues.


Why do you make the erroneous assumption that that is the ONLY thing those working for marriage equality care about or are working on? Most people are capable of caring about more than one thing at a time. Treating a segment of a society different than the rest of that society IS an important issue. Marriage is not the issue; discrimination is.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 2:30PM #36
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,374

May 28, 2012 -- 1:15PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 11:42AM, Do_unto_others wrote:


DO BETTER.



Okay, next try.


Those who think that out of all the possible issues we face on this planet, getting married is an important one, they have no truly important issues.



You don't seem to get it. It isn't JUST getting married that's important. It's being treated equally before the laws - ALL of them.


Besides the marriage inequality (and ALL that accompanies that one institution - some 1,176 Federal "effects that flow from marrriage" - from pensions, inheritances, child-custody, spousal immigration sponsorship, health-care and end-of-life decision-making, alimony/support-payments, not being required to testify against your [legal] spouse in a court of law,etc. that touch ALL parts of our lives), there's also employment inequality. In 30 States, it is still legal to fire someone (or not hire them) just for being gay, and in some states, for being believed to be gay. One Oklahoma heterosexual lost her job because whe was supportive of a lesbian co-worker which she showed by - GASP!!! - going to a bar with the woman.


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Yes, I see how marriage can be a cheap package deal to solve all sorts of real problems, and yes, it would be unfair to offer the package deal only to heterosexuals.



Apart from the un-necessary smarm, your conclusion is correct: it IS unfair (per the 14th Amendment's guarantee of "equal protections" of the law to ALL citizens) to "offer the package deal only to heterosexuals".


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

Nonetheless, marriage remains a pointlessness.



That's merely your opinion. You're welcome to it, but you only get to decide that for yourself, not others.


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

 The way in which the marriage contract differs from separate contracts on all the important issues that were mentioned, is only by money (it's cheaper) and by emotional delusion (it's less sober).



The only legal purpose of marriage is to establish legal kinship where none previously existed. As concerns "the effects that flow from marriage", such kinship would normally take legal precedent before any other parties in any other separate contracts.


May 25, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CharikIeia wrote:

The essence of marriage therefore, IMO, is cheap intoxication.




As you state, it's in YOUR opinion, and there only. Your opinion has no (and should have no) legal bearing on OTHER PEOPLE'S marriages/marriage contracts. Plus, your conclusion is not supported in your defense of it, since your defense was likewise based on opinions.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 2:46PM #37
karbie
Posts: 3,329

When you are in love, getting married and planning your future with someone, it does tend to push other things temporarily out of your mind. (Or all you are thinking of is "I'm the bride, I'm the princess, and I get my way in everything" like the extreme Bridezillas.)


Marriage is something that grows and evolves--this year will be our 35th wedding anniversary. I never dreamed I'd be disabled, and the fact that my husband has stood by me even during the times I'm basically useless means a great deal to me.


As to the Bridezilla creatures--I doubt if many of them stay married with their anger and sense of entitlement. If you don't view the wedding day as "our day", you aren't looking at it properly.


 I hope to see gays getting married in religious ceremonies and/or civil unions become the law of the land. It should be one we shake our heads over later on--like being able to marry someone of a different race, or minorities being allowed to vote.


If a couple is deeply in love and want to get married, they should be able to do so without pickets or hate-mongers around them.


I'm really tired of people using "I'm a Christian" to justify whatever petty or monstrous thing they want to inflict on all of us.


"You are letting your opinion be colored by facts again."
'When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
these are both from my father.
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 3:00PM #38
farragut
Posts: 3,937

Come to me with a valid marriage license and I shall be delighted to tie the knot.

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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 5:45PM #39
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

May 28, 2012 -- 2:30PM, Do_unto_others wrote:


It isn't JUST getting married that's important. It's being treated equally before the laws - ALL of them.



I'd believe you if at face value, people weren't campaigning pro marriage as if that were the prime and important topic...



Besides the marriage inequality (and ALL that accompanies that one institution - some 1,176 Federal "effects that flow from marrriage" - from pensions, inheritances, child-custody, spousal immigration sponsorship, health-care and end-of-life decision-making, alimony/support-payments, not being required to testify against your [legal] spouse in a court of law,etc. that touch ALL parts of our lives), there's also employment inequality. In 30 States, it is still legal to fire someone (or not hire them) just for being gay, and in some states, for being believed to be gay. One Oklahoma heterosexual lost her job because whe was supportive of a lesbian co-worker which she showed by - GASP!!! - going to a bar with the woman.



Why should I care for US laws? The USA are weird in more serious aspects than marriage, but yes, in marriage issues it seems especially weird - whether gay or non-gay. A more healthy, detached take on marriage would benefit the whole nation.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  May 28, 2012 - 6:37PM #40
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,763

May 28, 2012 -- 5:45PM, CharikIeia wrote:


 I'd believe you if at face value, people weren't campaigning pro marriage as if that were the prime and important topic...




Marriage is being promotes since it is the most visible thing being denied. It is through that, that other rights shall be won. Rights, not special right just equal rights.


That and some people like to be married, nothing wrong with that. You may not realise how many rights go with marriage and how many personal protections for the couple.


But they are all important. If marriage rights are shown to be for everyone. It will be harder to discriminate again equal housing, medical care, jobs, etc.... The fight is NOT just for marriage equality. Although even if it were, it would be a worthy cause. No one should have the right to deny two consenting adults to marry. Ever.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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