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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 8:10PM #31
wohali
Posts: 10,227

Stardove:


When it comes to stand your ground Trayvon had a right to do that, even if he didn't have a gun.  He was being followed by a stranger."


Indeed, he was being menaced.

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 9:04PM #32
Stardove
Posts: 15,696

May 17, 2012 -- 5:41PM, TPaine wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 12:52PM, mindis1 wrote:


Does anyone know of evidence that Zimmerman did not reasonably believe that such force as he used was necessary to prevent serious injury to himself?


776.012 Use of force in defense of person. --


. . . a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:


(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another . . .


www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chap...



The co-authors of the Florida "Stand Your Ground Law" both agree that it should not apply in the Zimmerman case. Link



Good information Tpaine.


From the FL law:



776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


By following Trayvon Zimmerman provoked whatever happening that night.

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 9:06PM #33
Stardove
Posts: 15,696

May 17, 2012 -- 8:10PM, wohali wrote:


Stardove:


"When it comes to stand your ground Trayvon had a right to do that, even if he didn't have a gun.  He was being followed by a stranger."


Indeed, he was being menaced.



Wohali....Exactly...indeed!

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 9:22PM #34
mountain_man
Posts: 40,209

May 17, 2012 -- 10:47AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Wealthy people....


Wealth is not included in "race, religion, creed, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender." That means your argument fails with the first two words.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 9:24PM #35
mountain_man
Posts: 40,209

May 17, 2012 -- 12:52PM, mindis1 wrote:

Does anyone know of evidence that Zimmerman did not reasonably believe that such force as he used was necessary to prevent serious injury to himself?


Yes. He could have avoided the use of force by staying in his car. If you attack someone and they fight back you don't get to whine about it.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 9:27PM #36
mountain_man
Posts: 40,209

May 17, 2012 -- 4:15PM, Cesmom wrote:

Bottom line as has been said many times...


Zimmerman was wrong.  Period.  If every single claim that Zimmerman has made about what happened that night turned out to be 100% true, Zimmerman was still wrong.  There is no way around that indisputable fact.  Martin didn't approach his car and attack him.  He followed Martin with a gun.  He was wrong and should be prosecuted. 


Now, we can debate about just how wrong he may have been and just what crime he should be prosecuted for, but there is no way around the fact that his poor judgment caused a young man to lose his life.  Period.  Next.


Finally! We agree on something. Cool

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 11:27PM #37
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 17, 2012 -- 9:22PM, mountain_man wrote:


May 17, 2012 -- 10:47AM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Wealthy people....


Wealth is not included in "race, religion, creed, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender." That means your argument fails with the first two words.





But, it should be included. Because people deliberately target wealthy people, in ways that are sure to be disconcerting to other wealthy people.


I think, "portly white Republicans, of great wealth", should be included in "hate crime" laws, because they fit the supposed critera.

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 11:31PM #38
teilhard
Posts: 51,837

Yes ... Trayvon Martin had EVERY Right to defend HIMSELF from his Stalker ...


May 17, 2012 -- 8:10PM, wohali wrote:


Stardove:


When it comes to stand your ground Trayvon had a right to do that, even if he didn't have a gun.  He was being followed by a stranger."


Indeed, he was being menaced.





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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 11:41PM #39
Erey
Posts: 19,149

Call me crazy but I don't think I would choose to "defend myself" in that manner (ie physically, with punches, etc.) against a guy with a GUN!!!  I would probably choose to flee or if I felt trapped reason my way out of it.  Probably I would use my cell phone to dial 911, while I was fleeing.  I am not going to throw a punch against a guy with a gun. I might not be the most street savvy person around but I am clear that you don't go throwing your fists against a guy with a gun. 


I give Trayvon something akin to a pass because of his youth but both of those guys were behaving in ways I find hard to understand or identify with. 

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 1:48AM #40
teilhard
Posts: 51,837

It's called, "Testosterone Poisoning" ...


May 17, 2012 -- 11:41PM, Erey wrote:


Call me crazy but I don't think I would choose to "defend myself" in that manner (ie physically, with punches, etc.) against a guy with a GUN!!!  I would probably choose to flee or if I felt trapped reason my way out of it.  Probably I would use my cell phone to dial 911, while I was fleeing.  I am not going to throw a punch against a guy with a gun. I might not be the most street savvy person around but I am clear that you don't go throwing your fists against a guy with a gun. 


I give Trayvon something akin to a pass because of his youth but both of those guys were behaving in ways I find hard to understand or identify with. 





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