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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 10:13AM #51
mindis1
Posts: 7,930

May 18, 2012 -- 8:22AM, Nepenthe wrote:


The evidence now being leaked does support the claim that Martin engaged Zimmerman, not the other way around.   



Ironically (and kind of surprising to me), that is exactly what the evidence being leaked by the prosecutor seems to indicate.


In fact, one report I saw on TV mentioned the documentation of what seems to be this witness account (which I had not been aware of):  


The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel's report.


One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. 


articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/26/nation/...

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 10:20AM #52
mindis1
Posts: 7,930

May 18, 2012 -- 10:07AM, Cesmom wrote:


Even if Martin threw the first punch, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.  I don't see any way that anyone could dispute that part.




You do realize that the prosecutor needs to provide evidence that Zimmerman "provoke[d] the use of force against himself".  This alleged provocation by Zimmerman is not something that one can simply assume.  Right?  

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 10:45AM #53
Cesmom
Posts: 5,146

May 18, 2012 -- 10:20AM, mindis1 wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 10:07AM, Cesmom wrote:


Even if Martin threw the first punch, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.  I don't see any way that anyone could dispute that part.




You do realize that the prosecutor needs to provide evidence that Zimmerman "provoke[d] the use of force against himself".  This alleged provocation by Zimmerman is not something that one can simply assume.  Right?  




By Zimmerman's own admission, he followed an unarmed teenager with a gun.  I guess it's all a matter of how you interpret that.  I personally think that following an unarmed person with a gun = provocation.  

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 10:45AM #54
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,720

May 18, 2012 -- 10:07AM, Cesmom wrote:

Even if Martin threw the first punch, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.  I don't see any way that anyone could dispute that part.




Following is not contact initiation.  No matter how wrong I think the actions of Zimmerman are, the prosecution will still have to prove that Zimmerman initiated contact by confronting Martin.  As it stands, the limited evidence that has been leaked does not prove this.  

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 11:00AM #55
teilhard
Posts: 51,408

Thus far, ALL of The Evidence STILL indicates that if The Night Stalker had stayed in his Truck and waited for the Police to arrive, Trayvon Martin would NOT have been shot and killed ...

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 11:04AM #56
Ebon
Posts: 10,148

Teilhard, we've already had one Night Stalker and, whatever one may think of George Zimmerman, he hasn't raped and murdered 14 (at least) people.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 11:11AM #57
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,720

May 18, 2012 -- 11:00AM, teilhard wrote:


Thus far, ALL of The Evidence STILL indicates that if The Night Stalker had stayed in his Truck and waited for the Police to arrive, Trayvon Martin would NOT have been shot and killed ...




This is true.  The task of the prosecution will be to turn this action into a conviction.  Assuming, of course, that the prosecution and thier bosses actually want to convict.

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 12:28PM #58
mindis1
Posts: 7,930

May 18, 2012 -- 10:45AM, Cesmom wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 10:20AM, mindis1 wrote:


May 18, 2012 -- 10:07AM, Cesmom wrote:


Even if Martin threw the first punch, it wouldn't change the fact that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.  I don't see any way that anyone could dispute that part.




You do realize that the prosecutor needs to provide evidence that Zimmerman "provoke[d] the use of force against himself".  This alleged provocation by Zimmerman is not something that one can simply assume.  Right?  




By Zimmerman's own admission, he followed an unarmed teenager with a gun.  I guess it's all a matter of how you interpret that.  



Again, the prosecutor needs to provide evidence that Zimmerman provoked the use of force against himself. A particular “interpretation”of an act that one can “interpret” in some other way is obviously not evidence.


A neighborhood watch volunteer “following” someone, and even stopping and questioning someone, just does not imply that that volunteer “provoked” the use of force against him/herself, does it?  It's commonplace for neighborhood watch persons to follow, stop and question people, isn't it?

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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:38PM #59
teilhard
Posts: 51,408

Everybody has to start SOMEWHERE, yes ... ???


Zimmerman DOES already have a Criminal History, however -- Domestic Abuse and Assault on a Poilice Officer ...


May 18, 2012 -- 11:04AM, Ebon wrote:


Teilhard, we've already had one Night Stalker and, whatever one may think of George Zimmerman, he hasn't raped and murdered 14 (at least) people.





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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:52PM #60
TPaine
Posts: 9,380

May 18, 2012 -- 12:28PM, mindis1 wrote:


Again, the prosecutor needs to provide evidence that Zimmerman provoked the use of force against himself. A particular “interpretation”of an act that one can “interpret” in some other way is obviously not evidence.


A neighborhood watch volunteer “following” someone, and even stopping and questioning someone, just does not imply that that volunteer “provoked” the use of force against him/herself, does it?  It's commonplace for neighborhood watch persons to follow, stop and question people, isn't it?



According to the Neighborhood Watch Manual published by USAonWatch in partnership with the National Sheriffs' Association and the Bureau of Justice Assistance of the U.S. Department of Justice on page 17 it states:

"Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous. Patrol members can be equipped for their duties. For example, flashlights or searchlights are necessary for night patrols. Many mobile patrols use cell phones or two-way radios to contact a citizen-manned base station, which in turn contacts law enforcement officials when necessary. Remember your partnerships and ask for donations from local businesses."


at the bottom of page 22 it states in large type:

REMEMBER:
Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.


Link

"The genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs." -- Justice William Brennan: Speech to the Text and Teaching Symposium at Georgetown University (October 12, 1985)
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