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Switch to Forum Live View 42 years ago Kent St. Massacre
2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 1:53PM #1
ted08721
Posts: 3,757
Question can it happen again, we have see quite a bit of violence by the state so far.

www.alternet.org/story/155270/will_a_mil...
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 1:55PM #2
ted08721
Posts: 3,757

These two pictures have an erie resemblance

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:58PM #3
Druac
Posts: 12,090

"free speech" isn't really that dangerous...anarchy can be, however.


The risk is heightened when you decide to mix "free speech" with unlawful acts.


Injecting the possibility of something like that happening now when it hasn't actually happened; is saying what about the movement and those who are participating in the unlawful acts?


I'm sure there are some in this movement that would actually want that to happen, to give them more exposure and to anger the stupid...it definitely seems that way as these "splinter" groups or anarchists always seem to be pushing for something like that.


In case you didn’t know, we do live in America and there are many ways to lawfully protest and to gather in this country…Occupy might want to try more of those and get better organized if they want pity from those of us who think they are wasting their time in the manner they are going about it now. They might want to also take control of their own movement and quit letting the anarchists hi-jack it.


 

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
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We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
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"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 4:32PM #4
rabello
Posts: 21,638

Interesting attitude, Druac, but surprising, too, seeing as it's coming from somebody who is always cynically claiming that everything is our fault, that we are all too stupid, lazy and pampered to do anything to change anything, etc etc etc


But, I would have to ask what "unlawful acts" do you think those women who got peppersrayed were doing...and what "unlawful acts" were the antiwar Viet Nam War protesters at Kent State doing?


What do you think the American people should be doing about politico's like Obama or Bush, Biden or Cheney, and the do nothing Congress if everything is the people's fault to begin with?  I hope you're not going to just say vote...we did that in 2008.   

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 7:26PM #5
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Who were the imbeciles who ordered live ammunition for the guardsmen?

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 7:54PM #6
Druac
Posts: 12,090

May 4, 2012 -- 4:32PM, rabello wrote:


Interesting attitude, Druac, but surprising, too, seeing as it's coming from somebody who is always cynically claiming that everything is our fault, that we are all too stupid, lazy and pampered to do anything to change anything, etc etc etc


But, I would have to ask what "unlawful acts" do you think those women who got peppersrayed were doing...and what "unlawful acts" were the antiwar Viet Nam War protesters at Kent State doing?


What do you think the American people should be doing about politico's like Obama or Bush, Biden or Cheney, and the do nothing Congress if everything is the people's fault to begin with?  I hope you're not going to just say vote...we did that in 2008.   




Interesting and surprising...probably because it differs from yours and mine doesn't conform to something you think it should? :)


I didn't say anyone did anything unlawful at Kent state...so I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm talking about the unlawful things some in the Occupy movement do, like breaking things, throwing things at cops, camping/squatting where it isn't legal, disrupting business and employment, defecating in public, etc, etc, etc. Pepper sprayed isn’t what happened at Kent State…not even close.


Am I not correct when I describe the American citizen as a whole? I think I am. There are those of us who do care and do get involved, but we are the very few. I’m talking about the majority in America when I say “us”, and I think I am accurate in my description as a whole, mostly due to selfishness and greed. Prove me wrong, if you think I am.


They should hold their elected officials accountable and they should demand the reform of our political system to do away with career politicians and reform the way we finance political campaigns for national office, in my honest opinion. And even more important, they should be ready to sacrifice to change what is currently unsustainable. I don’t see any of that coming from the masses…just a few loudmouths that want attention. For the most part, people are continuing just as they always have…in selfish pursuit of “MINE”.


You can protest and practice free speech, you can even change the way our government works, all within lawful means and safely, if you choose to do so. If your goal is something closer to revolution or anarchy, then good luck to the Occupy movement, as they have a long ways to go and they really don’t seem capable or organized enough to get it done.

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 10:19PM #7
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Hmmm.  Unlawful?  The Kent State demonstrators torched off the campus ROTC building and had already had an altercation with police, breaking windowas, setting firesm, and throwing rocks and bottles.  The group approaching the National Guard were screaming epihets and throwing rock and bottle.  This group of NG had no training in riot control and all testified they wwere afraid for their lives, and they did what scared untrained kids armed with loaded weapons would do.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 10:31PM #8
rabello
Posts: 21,638

May 4, 2012 -- 10:25PM, rabello wrote:


May 4, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Druac wrote:


Interesting and surprising...probably because it differs from yours and mine doesn't conform to something you think it should? :)




More that it sounds so rightwing


May 4, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Druac wrote:


I didn't say anyone did anything unlawful at Kent state...so I'm not sure where you got that from.




Well, the thread is about the Kent State massacre and a comparison of it and today's Occupy movement and you made your post about "unlawful acts" without explaining what that had to do with Kent State...so it was a natural assumption to make.


May 4, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Druac wrote:


I'm talking about the unlawful things some in the Occupy movement do, like breaking things, throwing things at cops, camping/squatting where it isn't legal, disrupting business and employment, defecating in public, etc, etc, etc.




The bad acts of a few don't convict all of the whole.  It has been clearly shown that the women shown in the photo ted provided after being peppersprayed weren't doing anything wrong.  Ditto on those who got sprayed without concern by the copper as if they were mere weeds growing out of the sidewalk....they weren't doing anything wrong, either.


May 4, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Druac wrote:


Pepper sprayed isn’t what happened at Kent State…not even close.




Don't have to tell me


May 4, 2012 -- 7:54PM, Druac wrote:


Am I not correct when I describe the American citizen as a whole? I think I am. There are those of us who do care and do get involved, but we are the very few. I’m talking about the majority in America when I say “us”, and I think I am accurate in my description as a whole, mostly due to selfishness and greed. Prove me wrong, if you think I am.


They should hold their elected officials accountable and they should demand the reform of our political system to do away with career politicians and reform the way we finance political campaigns for national office, in my honest opinion. And even more important, they should be ready to sacrifice to change what is currently unsustainable. I don’t see any of that coming from the masses…just a few loudmouths that want attention. For the most part, people are continuing just as they always have…in selfish pursuit of “MINE”.


You can protest and practice free speech, you can even change the way our government works, all within lawful means and safely, if you choose to do so. If your goal is something closer to revolution or anarchy, then good luck to the Occupy movement, as they have a long ways to go and they really don’t seem capable or organized enough to get it done.




Occupy is demanding reform, something we are not seeing from the main players -- and I don't mean the politico's but the opinion makers, the "activists" -- from either political party.


It's not worth the time to try to prove you "wrong" when it comes to selfishness and greed (it's a matter of opinion with both pros and cons), but I do still wonder how the people are supposed to overcome the influence of gargantuan sums of money in politics, the greed and corruption of those who have the power to make things happen, or the fact that everything, starting with the special interest lobbies, is stacked against them.  I can understand why people would just tune it out when they can't do anything about it -- and when some try, they get blasted for it, anyway.





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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 10:35PM #9
Ironhold
Posts: 11,548

What most modern-day pundits don't realize is that the four Kent State students who were shot weren't part of the mob that was ascending towards the Guard unit.


You see, the Guard unit actually fired over the heads of the mob as a warning volley.


The students were in a commons area some distance away.


That's right: the Guard unit fired live rounds into the air as a warning volley to scare off the mob, at which point the bullets ultimately arced and headed towards the main campus.


The Guard didn't actually mean to kill anyone that day.

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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 11:59PM #10
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

May 4, 2012 -- 10:35PM, Ironhold wrote:


What most modern-day pundits don't realize is that the four Kent State students who were shot weren't part of the mob that was ascending towards the Guard unit.


You see, the Guard unit actually fired over the heads of the mob as a warning volley.


The students were in a commons area some distance away.


That's right: the Guard unit fired live rounds into the air as a warning volley to scare off the mob, at which point the bullets ultimately arced and headed towards the main campus.


The Guard didn't actually mean to kill anyone that day.




Correct. the problem was, of course, that bullets come down someplace. Subsequent to this incident Guard units began receiving riot control taining which did not inviolve the use of their rifles, but instead they were trained in the use of batons, shields, and helmets with face shields.


M own expeience with National Guard units on active duty has been to note that they prefer being sent into comba over performing riot control missions. Of course it is possible that some Guardsmen andd women who have done multiple tours in Iraq and/or Afghanistan would prefer domestic riot control duty to going back in the sandbox or rock pile.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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