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Switch to Forum Live View US Pastor Terry Jones Burns Qur'an Again
2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 11:11PM #81
Beautiful_Dreamer
Posts: 5,152

I'm sorry if I missed something, but:


Yes, I know that Terry Jones was burning a Quran to protest the coming death sentence to a Christian in Iran. Yes, I see that burning a Quran in Florida rather than Iran serves to raise awareness of what is going on...


But since when does Iran give a flying fig what pastors in the US think? Since when do they care what anyone else thinks? Protesting or raising awareness of something does no good if the targets of said protest ignore it or protest back.


I also might have missed this but...I see that burning ink and paper shouldn't offend anyone, but it's not the *materials* so much as what the materials *represent*...


I know I'm coming at this late but I've been busy.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2012 - 10:18AM #82
TRUECHRISTIAN
Posts: 946

 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:11PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran.




Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Even so, he chose to do it in a way that also expressed contempt for the whole religion and its 1 1/2 billion followers, not only the few whom you say he intended to insult. 



I disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for the WHOLE religion. 


I also disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for ALL of the 1.7 billion Muslims. 


Where we disagree is on the issue of "intent". 


Pastor Terry clearly expressed the reason for his burning the Quran.  


You apparently do not believe him.   


Was it the "intent" of the Muslims in Iran to express contempt for the WHOLE Christian religion and ALL 2.5 billion Christians?  


I do not know the reason, the intent of the Muslims in Iran for passing the death sentence.   


 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Anyway, how much insult and hatred can one express and still be in the right, rather than in the wrong?



It would depend on the individual situations.  


If I understand you correctly, you think it NEVER wrong to insult or express contempt towards anyone for any reason. 


I also think it depends on what you expressing hatred towards. 


Love the sinner HATE the sin. 


 www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=vipers...


by: Book of the Bible |  Most relevant search result



  • Matthew 3:7 NIV


    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?


  • Romans 3:13 NIV


    "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."



It is clear to me that Jesus was insulting many of the Pharisees and Sadducees.  It is clear to me that he was not insulting or expressing contempt for the Judiac religion or ALL Jews or even ALL Pharisees and Saducees.  


He clearly gave the reasons what he was expressing hatred for, which was that because


 ""Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips.""


I think we would both agree that Jesus did not say this out of HATRED for those Pharisees and Saducess but out of LOVE.


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Is there a difference between rightly giving offense and wrongly giving offense, between right hatred and wrong hatred?



Yes, there is a difference.  It is right to give offense for what people DO, if it is wrong, it is wrong to give offense towards THE PEOPLE themselves. 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


 Is it ever right to behave in a way that can resonably be expected to provoke hateful feelings in others?



The problem is with what is "reasonable".   If I was Jewish, it could be "resonable" for me to "reason" that what Jesus said about the Pharisees and Saducees was meant to provoke hatred and contempt for the Judiac religion and ALL Jews. 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


What about this incident, which took place just last week?  Were these self-described "Bible Believers" acting rightly, or wrongly? 



It is clear and reasonable, to me, in this incident and situations that the "intent" of those Christians was to express hatred and contempt for the religion of Islam. 


""Islam is a religion of blood and murder" and "Muhammad (Islam's prophet) is a ... liar, false prophet, murderer, child molesting pervert." 


Wether or not Muslims are going to "burn in hell" because they are Muslims  and not Christians is....less clear.  There are Christians who do believe-think that ALL who are not Christians will burn in hell. 


What is clear to me is that ONLY GOD KNOWS. 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


"Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.  And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."  I John 4:20-21




While Jesus did not explicting state to "love the sinner"  and "hate the sin" most if not all do think-believe that is "resonable".  I am sure that you will agree with me that they are TRUECHRISTIAN that these "missionaries" are FALSECHRISTIAN.


It would be reasonable that those Muslims would be offended and insulted by what those "missionaries" did. 


It would all be "reasonable" that ALL 1.7 billion Muslims on the planet would also be offended and insulted, if they all heard about it.


It would be reasonable that if those Muslims understood the TRUECHRISTIAN doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that they MIGHT NOT be insulted and offended.


"Other missionaries  (TRUECHRISTIAN?)at the festival were less confrontational(offensive-insulting?), handing out fliers telling Muslims to convert and handing out free Christian books.


One(TRUECHISTIAN?) wore a T-shirt that read ''I (heart symbol) Muslims'' while handing out fliers that urged Muslims to ''accept the Lord Jesus Christ.''


What is clear to me is that there was no violence or threats of violence either by these FALSECHRISTIAN(?) or by the TRUEMUSLIMS.


What is clear and resonable to me is that IF ALL 1.7 billion Muslims hear about this incident that SOME FALSEMUSLIMS(?)"  "might" be so offended and insulted that they would commit violence against Christians who had nothing to do with this "incident-situation".  


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:57PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Muslims are not worshippers of my God. They are the enemies of God, and the 7th head of the Satanic beast of the Revelation, who trampled Jerusalem underfoot for 1260 years as prophesied. Now their time is up, but they want to rule Jerusalem again, and are hell bent on staring the Battle of Ar Mageddon. Islam has to be defeated, and then there will be peace for a thousand years.



smcisaac


I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you would disagree with "theinterpreter" and that he disagrees with you. 


I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you disagree that his interpretation of the Bible is a FALSEINTERPRETATION(?) and it is reasonable that he is  a FALSECHRISTIAN. 


I think that all three would agree that Muslims who hear about his "interpretation" wether it is "true" or "false" would be offended and insulted by his "interpretation". 


 


 


 


Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:57PM, theinterpreter wrote:


Pastor Jones needs to have another Quran burning to protest the genocide that Muslims are carrying out on Christians in Nigeria.



Unlike the protest by Pastor Jones, I think that more people are aware of the Muslims who are carrying out genocide, against Christians in Nighera.  


If I were an American-Muslim(TRUEMUSLIM ?) I would dissagree that those Muslims(FALSEMUSLIMS ?)in Nigeria interpretating the Quran truly.  




 




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 30, 2012 - 1:28PM #83
smcisaac
Posts: 7,891

Jun 30, 2012 -- 10:18AM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


 


Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:11PM, TRUECHRISTIAN wrote:


I disagree that he is tried to "gratutioisly" tried to offend strangers.  It was his stated intention to offend those strangers to offend those Muslims who convicted the Pastor in Iran.




Jun 22, 2012 -- 3:15PM, smcisaac wrote:


Even so, he chose to do it in a way that also expressed contempt for the whole religion and its 1 1/2 billion followers, not only the few whom you say he intended to insult. 



I disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for the WHOLE religion. 


I also disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for ALL of the 1.7 billion Muslims. 


Where we disagree is on the issue of "intent".




At the very minimum, it shows a contemptuous disregard and disrespect for them.  Whether it was intentional or just grossly reckless is almost beside the point.


Do you remember how deeply offended and insulted many Christians were at the unorthodox, irreverent portrayal of Jesus in the Matin Scorcese film, "The Last Temptation of Christ"?  Or the death threats that artist Andres Serrano received when he displayed his work, "Piss Christ", a photo of a crucifix in a jar of urine?  It wasn't Scorcese's or Serrano's primary intent to offend all Christianity or all Christians, but it was entirely foreseeable that their actions would be widely seen as disrespectful anyway.


Burning the Qur'an is even more offensive to Muslims than sacrilegious representations of Jesus are to Christians.  That's because Christians recognize representations of Jesus as exactly that -- mere representations, not the real thing.  In contrast, Muslims believe (even though Christians disagree) that the words of the Qur'an are genuine divine utterances received directly from God.  To every faithful Muslim, doing violence to the Qur'an is to stand in open, direct rebellion against God Himself and therefore to stand in allegiance to (or at least in a state of evil confusion caused by) Satan.


Which is something the pridefully self-ordained Jones would have appreciated if he weren't so contemptuous and prejudiced toward all Muslims that he willfully refused to consider it before he lit his match.  His actions overtly demonstrated his genuine contempt for them.   Whether he demonstrated his contempt intentionally or only inadvertently boils down to a question of whether he was acting more out of informed hostility or ignorant hostility.  Either way, though, his hostility and contempt are (IMHO) the antithesis of how truly faithful Christians are called to behave. Therefore, even by Christian rather than Muslim standards, his actions truly do reflect evil confusion caused by Satan -- who often hides his presence behind a screen of seduction and deception, but whose fruit is always recognizable by its bitterness. Christians can disagree with Muslims on points of doctrine, even the most foundational ones, without letting disagreement dissolve into hatred.


This, and not my own scorn or desire to offend, is why I have used words like "antichrist" in this conversation.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way."  Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

"Christ will regenerate all things; through Him all things will be purged, and return into eternal life. And when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, all things will be God; that is, all things will still exist, but God will exist in them, and they will be full of Him." Fabius Manus Victorinus, c. 350 AD
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