|5 years ago :: Jun 22, 2012 - 11:11PM #81|
I'm sorry if I missed something, but:
Yes, I know that Terry Jones was burning a Quran to protest the coming death sentence to a Christian in Iran. Yes, I see that burning a Quran in Florida rather than Iran serves to raise awareness of what is going on...
But since when does Iran give a flying fig what pastors in the US think? Since when do they care what anyone else thinks? Protesting or raising awareness of something does no good if the targets of said protest ignore it or protest back.
I also might have missed this but...I see that burning ink and paper shouldn't offend anyone, but it's not the *materials* so much as what the materials *represent*...
I know I'm coming at this late but I've been busy.
|5 years ago :: Jun 30, 2012 - 10:18AM #82|
I disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for the WHOLE religion.
I also disagree that it was the intention of Pastor Terry to express contempt for ALL of the 1.7 billion Muslims.
Where we disagree is on the issue of "intent".
Pastor Terry clearly expressed the reason for his burning the Quran.
You apparently do not believe him.
Was it the "intent" of the Muslims in Iran to express contempt for the WHOLE Christian religion and ALL 2.5 billion Christians?
I do not know the reason, the intent of the Muslims in Iran for passing the death sentence.
It would depend on the individual situations.
If I understand you correctly, you think it NEVER wrong to insult or express contempt towards anyone for any reason.
I also think it depends on what you expressing hatred towards.
Love the sinner HATE the sin.
It is clear to me that Jesus was insulting many of the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is clear to me that he was not insulting or expressing contempt for the Judiac religion or ALL Jews or even ALL Pharisees and Saducees.
He clearly gave the reasons what he was expressing hatred for, which was that because
""Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips.""
I think we would both agree that Jesus did not say this out of HATRED for those Pharisees and Saducess but out of LOVE.
Yes, there is a difference. It is right to give offense for what people DO, if it is wrong, it is wrong to give offense towards THE PEOPLE themselves.
The problem is with what is "reasonable". If I was Jewish, it could be "resonable" for me to "reason" that what Jesus said about the Pharisees and Saducees was meant to provoke hatred and contempt for the Judiac religion and ALL Jews.
It is clear and reasonable, to me, in this incident and situations that the "intent" of those Christians was to express hatred and contempt for the religion of Islam.
""Islam is a religion of blood and murder" and "Muhammad (Islam's prophet) is a ... liar, false prophet, murderer, child molesting pervert."
Wether or not Muslims are going to "burn in hell" because they are Muslims and not Christians is....less clear. There are Christians who do believe-think that ALL who are not Christians will burn in hell.
What is clear to me is that ONLY GOD KNOWS.
While Jesus did not explicting state to "love the sinner" and "hate the sin" most if not all do think-believe that is "resonable". I am sure that you will agree with me that they are TRUECHRISTIAN that these "missionaries" are FALSECHRISTIAN.
It would be reasonable that those Muslims would be offended and insulted by what those "missionaries" did.
It would all be "reasonable" that ALL 1.7 billion Muslims on the planet would also be offended and insulted, if they all heard about it.
It would be reasonable that if those Muslims understood the TRUECHRISTIAN doctrine of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that they MIGHT NOT be insulted and offended.
"Other missionaries (TRUECHRISTIAN?)at the festival were less confrontational(offensive-insulting?), handing out fliers telling Muslims to convert and handing out free Christian books.
One(TRUECHISTIAN?) wore a T-shirt that read ''I (heart symbol) Muslims'' while handing out fliers that urged Muslims to ''accept the Lord Jesus Christ.''
What is clear to me is that there was no violence or threats of violence either by these FALSECHRISTIAN(?) or by the TRUEMUSLIMS.
What is clear and resonable to me is that IF ALL 1.7 billion Muslims hear about this incident that SOME FALSEMUSLIMS(?)" "might" be so offended and insulted that they would commit violence against Christians who had nothing to do with this "incident-situation".
I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you would disagree with "theinterpreter" and that he disagrees with you.
I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that you disagree that his interpretation of the Bible is a FALSEINTERPRETATION(?) and it is reasonable that he is a FALSECHRISTIAN.
I think that all three would agree that Muslims who hear about his "interpretation" wether it is "true" or "false" would be offended and insulted by his "interpretation".
Unlike the protest by Pastor Jones, I think that more people are aware of the Muslims who are carrying out genocide, against Christians in Nighera.
If I were an American-Muslim(TRUEMUSLIM ?) I would dissagree that those Muslims(FALSEMUSLIMS ?)in Nigeria interpretating the Quran truly.
I could be wrong.
|5 years ago :: Jun 30, 2012 - 1:28PM #83|
Do you remember how deeply offended and insulted many Christians were at the unorthodox, irreverent portrayal of Jesus in the Matin Scorcese film, "The Last Temptation of Christ"? Or the death threats that artist Andres Serrano received when he displayed his work, "Piss Christ", a photo of a crucifix in a jar of urine? It wasn't Scorcese's or Serrano's primary intent to offend all Christianity or all Christians, but it was entirely foreseeable that their actions would be widely seen as disrespectful anyway.
Burning the Qur'an is even more offensive to Muslims than sacrilegious representations of Jesus are to Christians. That's because Christians recognize representations of Jesus as exactly that -- mere representations, not the real thing. In contrast, Muslims believe (even though Christians disagree) that the words of the Qur'an are genuine divine utterances received directly from God. To every faithful Muslim, doing violence to the Qur'an is to stand in open, direct rebellion against God Himself and therefore to stand in allegiance to (or at least in a state of evil confusion caused by) Satan.
Which is something the pridefully self-ordained Jones would have appreciated if he weren't so contemptuous and prejudiced toward all Muslims that he willfully refused to consider it before he lit his match. His actions overtly demonstrated his genuine contempt for them. Whether he demonstrated his contempt intentionally or only inadvertently boils down to a question of whether he was acting more out of informed hostility or ignorant hostility. Either way, though, his hostility and contempt are (IMHO) the antithesis of how truly faithful Christians are called to behave. Therefore, even by Christian rather than Muslim standards, his actions truly do reflect evil confusion caused by Satan -- who often hides his presence behind a screen of seduction and deception, but whose fruit is always recognizable by its bitterness. Christians can disagree with Muslims on points of doctrine, even the most foundational ones, without letting disagreement dissolve into hatred.
This, and not my own scorn or desire to offend, is why I have used words like "antichrist" in this conversation.
"To substitute Scripture for the self-revealing Spirit is to put the dead letter in the place of the living Word." Sebastian Franck