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2 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:29PM #11
teilhard
Posts: 50,090

Is it okay to kill Insects ... ???


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:24PM, solfeggio wrote:


This is true.  But, the fact that there actually is public outrage against this barbaric practise shows at least some evolution in thought in the general public.  After all, the seal hunts have gone on for years without anybody protesting until fairly recently.


The same thing holds true for whales.  The U.S. was still whaling as late as 1927, but public opinion has turned completely around since then, so that America is one of the many countries around the world steadfastly against killing whales.


You don't judge an animal's worth on its cuteness quotient.  All life is equal and all life is equally worth of respect.  There is no moral difference between killing a baby seal, a bear, or a wolf, but unfortunately the public in its ignorance often perceives this differently.


We should all strive for species egalitarianism - rather than anthropocentrism, which gives primary consideration to human interests above that of the animal.  All species have equal moral standing. 


 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 12:37AM #12
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:00PM, arielg wrote:

Many people indulge in seletive outrage about  this....


Which is no different than your selective outrage.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:16AM #13
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Is it okay, though, for Polar Bears and Killer Whales to kill-and-eat Baby Seals  AS  LONG  AS  they DON'T wear their Fur afterward ... ???


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:00PM, arielg wrote:


Many people indulge in seletive outrage about  this.  It is no more nor less barbaric than any other form of hunting that is  accepted as "necessary" or a "sport" in societies around the world. It seems worse because the cruelty is so obvious, but a  wolf or a bear, caught up in a trap or shot  is no different.


 Not all those other  animals have the public relations of the  big puppy eyes staring as they are clobbered.


 








This is the usual stupid argument that animals do it, therefore it is OK to do it.  We are animals, they say,  while at the same time pointing out how superior humans are.


Animals do not act based on greed, self- glorification, desire for power, boredom, or to show their worth. They are guided by instincts, which has it's own intrinsic harmony.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 9:27AM #14
teilhard
Posts: 50,090

We Human Beings "live and move and have our being" as Primate Mammals ...


NO .. We are NOT superlatively "superior" to Nature -- we are PART of It ...


Apr 15, 2012 -- 9:16AM, arielg wrote:


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Is it okay, though, for Polar Bears and Killer Whales to kill-and-eat Baby Seals  AS  LONG  AS  they DON'T wear their Fur afterward ... ???


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:00PM, arielg wrote:


Many people indulge in seletive outrage about  this.  It is no more nor less barbaric than any other form of hunting that is  accepted as "necessary" or a "sport" in societies around the world. It seems worse because the cruelty is so obvious, but a  wolf or a bear, caught up in a trap or shot  is no different.


 Not all those other  animals have the public relations of the  big puppy eyes staring as they are clobbered.


 








This is the usual stupid argument that animals do it, therefore it is OK to do it.  We are animals, they say,  while at the same time pointing out how superior humans are.


Animals do not act based on greed, self- glorification, desire for power, boredom, or to show their worth. They are guided by instincts, which has it's own intrinsic harmony.


 





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 11:36AM #15
mountain_man
Posts: 38,798

Apr 15, 2012 -- 9:16AM, arielg wrote:

This is the usual stupid argument that animals do it, therefore it is OK to do it.


We are animals.


We are animals, they say,  while at the same time pointing out how superior humans are.


You're the only one mentioning the superior bit. We are different than other animals. Each species is different. Superiority is a judgement made only by those wishing to put themselves above other humans.


Animals do not act based on greed, self- glorification, desire for power, boredom, or to show their worth. They are guided by instincts, which has it's own intrinsic harmony.


I eat meat based on my instinct to survive. Meat is a food, a good source of many nutrients that humans need to survive and humans have evolved to make use of that protein source. There's nothing wrong with eating meat. It's what we do.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 1:54PM #16
rabello
Posts: 20,468

The only reason "man" is the "apex predator" is that he has to use tricks and weapons to kill whatever he wants dead....doesn't have the physical adaptations to go at it mano-to-animano

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Apr 17, 2012 - 10:26AM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 4:42PM #17
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,365

Canada strictly regulates harp seal hunting.  Inhumane or not, it probably won't stop because there remains a market for the fur, and there is no danger of harp seals going extinct.


...


I don't have an oar in this argument.  I certainly don't buy seal fur products.  I am not a Canadian citizen.



The Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) regulates the seal hunt in Canada. It sets quotas (total allowable catch-TAC), monitors the hunt, studies the seal population, works with the Canadian Sealers' Association to train sealers on new regulations, and promotes sealing through its website and spokespeople.


The DFO set kill quotas of over 90,000 seals in 2007, 275,000 in 2008, 280,000 in 2009, and 330,000 in 2010.  The actual kills in recent years have been less than the quotas: 82,800 in 2007, 217,800 in 2008, 72,400 in 2009, and 67,000 in 2010.   In 2007, Norway claimed that 29,000 harp seals were killed in its seal hunt, and Russia and Greenland claimed that 5,476 and 90,000 seals were killed in 2007, respectively.


Harp seal populations in the northwest Atlantic declined to approximately 2 million in the late 1960s as a result of Canada's annual kill rates that averaged over 291,000 from 1952 to 1970.   Conservationists demanded reduced rates of killing and stronger regulations to avert the extinction of the harp seals. In response, in 1971, the Canadian government instituted a quota system. The system was competitive, with each boat catching as many seals as it could before the hunt closed, which the Department of Fisheries and Oceans did when they knew that year's quota had been reached. Because it was thought that the competitive element might cause sealers to cut corners, new regulations where introduced that limited the catch to 400 seals per day, and 2000 per boat total.


A 2007 population survey conducted by the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) estimated the current population at 5.5 million (95% CI 3.8 million - 7.1 million).  It is illegal in Canada to hunt newborn harp seals (whitecoats) and young hooded seals (bluebacks). When the seal pups begin to molt their downy white fur at the age of 12–14 days, they are called "ragged-jacket" and can be commercially hunted.  After molting, the seals are called "beaters", named for the way they beat the water with their flippers.  The hunt remains highly controversial, attracting significant media coverage and protests each year.  Images from past hunts have become iconic symbols for conservation, animal welfare, and animal rights advocates. In 2009, Russia banned the hunting of harp seals less than one year old.



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 5:27PM #18
rabello
Posts: 20,468

Apr 15, 2012 -- 4:35PM, teilhard wrote:


To be fair, these such Questions/Concerns illustrate the Fact that our Human-Cultural Relationship to "Nature" is a PROBLEM for us ...




Not to mention, this particular hunt is happening right now.  I see no reason to NOT discuss it.  Those who aren't interested can start their own threads about topics they do care about. 


Fortunately, there are volunteers who risk their lives to try to prevent the bloodletting -- the unsung heroes of such appalling annual rituals.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 5:32PM #19
teilhard
Posts: 50,090

I gave up "Hunting" decades ago, but we do stlil eat SOME Meat in my Family -- some Domesticated and some Wild-Caught ...


Apr 15, 2012 -- 5:27PM, rabello wrote:


Apr 15, 2012 -- 4:35PM, teilhard wrote:


To be fair, these such Questions/Concerns illustrate the Fact that our Human-Cultural Relationship to "Nature" is a PROBLEM for us ...




Not to mention, this particular hunt is happening right now.  I see no reason to NOT discuss it.  Those who aren't interested can start their own threads about topics they do care about. 


Fortunately, there are volunteers who risk their lives to try to prevent the bloodletting -- the unsung heroes of such appalling annual rituals.





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 12:18AM #20
Erey
Posts: 18,441

I don't claim to be an expert on seals or Newfoundland.  But my understanding is that they do tend to actually EAT the seals in Newfoundland. 


In my ethics it is acceptable to kill animals you eat.  Even animals that are excrutiatingly cute and adorable like seals.  In my ethics you can choose to eat any animal where the numbers are strong and are not endangered. 


So I don't see the difference between eating a seal or a cow or a pig.  In fact, I think it is more humane to hunt food than eat livestock. 


Granted for me eating a seal would be rather exotic, I doubt I would do it. 

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