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Switch to Forum Live View Cow Flees Slaughterhouse
2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:03PM #371
christine3
Posts: 6,708

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:28PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 6:06PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

Oh, we are predators....


In more ways that one. But that does not excuse you from eating your veggies.





You two can go along and be predators.  I stalk veggies, they are easier to catch.  Don't like the blood either.  Would have never made a good doctor.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:10PM #372
christine3
Posts: 6,708


What about cloning animals for eating purposes?


>>>>The purpose of this thread is to talk about lessening suffering of animals, not continue it.  And to realize that animals think and have emotions just like humans.  Some animals are so close to humans in intelligence, it is not right to slaughter and eat them.  It is not right to make ANY animals suffer.  Because animals suffer, it puts humans in a moral dilemma...to let the suffering continue or to abolish it?  It is a choice.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:16PM #373
christine3
Posts: 6,708

The cow had no idea of what was going to happen. 


>>>>Yes, he did.  That's why he wanted to get away.  When an animal hears shrieking, pain, smells death, pee, feces from electrocution, sees a human sledge hammering, smells blood/slit open, it knows what is going on.  It knows a kill when it hears and smells it.  That's why animals run from it.  They have evolved to run away from danger.  It has evolved emotions that have ensured their survival.  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 10:32PM #374
christine3
Posts: 6,708

Apr 24, 2012 -- 9:51PM, jane2 wrote:


The solution will evolve--that old word. 


Our moral beings evolve, too from many backgrounds. 




Thank you Jane.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 11:12PM #375
mountain_man
Posts: 38,806

Cattle do not have the same thought processes that we do. The cow did not know what was about to happen. They have no means to process such a thought. The cow did not like where it was and had a picture in her mind (they "think" in pictures, not thoughts) of the last place she felt safe and was trying to get to that place. They are not human and do not have human style thought processes. Here; watch this, then study, as I have, a bit of ethology.  Then the conversation can continue at a higher level.


Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 11:32PM #376
jane2
Posts: 14,295

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:12PM, mountain_man wrote:


Cattle do not have the same thought processes that we do. The cow did not know what was about to happen. They have no means to process such a thought. The cow did not like where it was and had a picture in her mind (they "think" in pictures, not thoughts) of the last place she felt safe and was trying to get to that place. They are not human and do not have human style thought processes. Here; watch this, then study, as I have, a bit of ethology.  Then the conversation can continue at a higher level.





MM, you may be right about the cow in the story. I don't know how cows think or picture. Also I do not mind reasonable conversation about how we slaughter animals. If true cruelty is involved we can hope for more evolved thinking about the process.


I'm far too old to change how I eat--it would be dangerous at 72. And my sense of moral ethics has evolved for most of those 72 years. Even in my years in high-end sales, straight commission, I never sold a client/customer a defective product unless they so demanded. (One can't tell some people anything.)

Moderated by Merope on Apr 29, 2012 - 01:33AM
discuss catholicism
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 9:01AM #377
christine3
Posts: 6,708

Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:32PM, jane2 wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 11:12PM, mountain_man wrote:


Cattle do not have the same thought processes that we do. The cow did not know what was about to happen. They have no means to process such a thought. The cow did not like where it was and had a picture in her mind (they "think" in pictures, not thoughts) of the last place she felt safe and was trying to get to that place. They are not human and do not have human style thought processes. Here; watch this, then study, as I have, a bit of ethology.  Then the conversation can continue at a higher level.





MM, you may be right about the cow in the story. I don't know how cows think or picture. Also I do not mind reasonable conversation about how we slaughter animals. If true cruelty is involved we can hope for more evolved thinking about the process.


I'm far too old to change how I eat--it would be dangerous at 72. And my sense of moral ethics has evolved for most of those 72 years. Even in my years in high-end sales, straight commission, I never sold a client/customer a defective product unless they so demanded. (One can't tell some people anything.)
 




MM is arguing a point without adequate insight.  First, people listen to Temple Grandin because she is a curiosity.  People are fickle; a mentally deficient person who writes books will get their attention.  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Temple has done to help change the meat industry.  It has to be dismantled one piece at a time.  


Temple shows an example of fear vs. curiosity in cows.  Well guess what, a group of humans would act curious and afraid if an outsider came into a bar and laid down on the floor. Most wouldn't even go up to a person who acted like that.  If they did they'd approach cautiously.  All animals including human animal's first instinct is self preservation.  


The second link on ethology.  All human animals go through the process of forming relationships with other humans, and animals, VIA THE SAME COGNATE avenues as are attributed to animals...mimicking, stimulus response, imprinting, association, etc. every and all on that page.  MM, that you are trying to make a case for animals NOT thinking because they learn this way...the same way humans learn...is ridiculous.  Get some up to date studies.  Better yet, learn how to think.   

Moderated by Merope on Apr 29, 2012 - 01:33AM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 9:26AM #378
christine3
Posts: 6,708


MM:  Cattle do not have the same thought processes that we do.


>>>>Yes, they do.


        MM:  The cow did not know what was about to happen.


>>>>It did to the extent that it knew it was in danger.


        MM:  They have no means to process such a thought. The cow did not like where it was and had a picture in her mind (they "think" in pictures, not thoughts) of the last place she felt safe and was trying to get to that place.


>>>>Don't be ridiculous.  If you think that cows and humans think differently, think again.  Humans think in pictures too.  They think in several modalities, and so do cows.  BOTH have an experience which is referred back to what is already in the psyche (STORED INFORMATION).  In other words, BOTH take what they see, hear, touch, smell etc., BOTH their brains search (just like a computer would) the stored memory for relative information.  If it matches, BOTH choose response that works (ALSO STORED INFORMATION) among various responses that have been tried, if not paralyzed by fear. 


A classic example of humans NOT responding appropriately to stimuli that indicated clear and present danger is the Holocaust.  That experience had never happened to those millions of people.  Millions of people had never been relocated via cable cars.  The words "relocation camps" was what they were responding to.  Anything else would NOT have been in the collective memory.  The people had no reason to think they were going to be exterminated because they had lived in a society where mass extermination was a NON EVENT.  If you are arguing that cows do not think that they are going to be slaughtered, you are right.  Humans and cows think alike.  


Therefore, if you think that a bovine's experience is any different on the cognitive level, you are WAY off.  Merely not being acquainted with an experience to know what is happening (complete in total), is no reason for arguing that what is being done to them is OKAY.  It isn't.


         MM:  They are not human and do not have human style thought processes. 


>>>>Which 'human style' thought processes are different?  What are those?  There are no processes that are different.  


Here; watch this, then study, as I have, a bit of ethology.  Then the conversation can continue at a higher level.


>>>>Don't be ridiculous.  I watched them.  Neither of them proves your ridiculous arguments.  In fact, by default, the links prove you wrong.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 10:01AM #379
teilhard
Posts: 50,151

IF it were TRUE that Cattle think about and understand something of their Future vis-a-vis "slaughter," one would expect REGULAR Incidents and Reports of Mass Escapes and Uprisings ... 


Apr 25, 2012 -- 9:26AM, christine3 wrote:



MM:  Cattle do not have the same thought processes that we do.


>>>>Yes, they do.


        MM:  The cow did not know what was about to happen.


>>>>It did to the extent that it knew it was in danger.


        MM:  They have no means to process such a thought. The cow did not like where it was and had a picture in her mind (they "think" in pictures, not thoughts) of the last place she felt safe and was trying to get to that place.


>>>>Don't be ridiculous.  If you think that cows and humans think differently, think again.  Humans think in pictures too.  They think in several modalities, and so do cows.  BOTH have an experience which is referred back to what is already in the psyche (STORED INFORMATION).  In other words, BOTH take what they see, hear, touch, smell etc., BOTH their brains search (just like a computer would) the stored memory for relative information.  If it matches, BOTH choose response that works (ALSO STORED INFORMATION) among various responses that have been tried, if not paralyzed by fear. 


A classic example of humans NOT responding appropriately to stimuli that indicated clear and present danger is the Holocaust.  That experience had never happened to those millions of people.  Millions of people had never been relocated via cable cars.  The words "relocation camps" was what they were responding to.  Anything else would NOT have been in the collective memory.  The people had no reason to think they were going to be exterminated because they had lived in a society where mass extermination was a NON EVENT.  If you are arguing that cows do not think that they are going to be slaughtered, you are right.  Humans and cows think alike.  


Therefore, if you think that a bovine's experience is any different on the cognitive level, you are WAY off.  Merely not being acquainted with an experience to know what is happening (complete in total), is no reason for arguing that what is being done to them is OKAY.  It isn't.


         MM:  They are not human and do not have human style thought processes. 


>>>>Which 'human style' thought processes are different?  What are those?  There are no processes that are different.  


Here; watch this, then study, as I have, a bit of ethology.  Then the conversation can continue at a higher level.


>>>>Don't be ridiculous.  I watched them.  Neither of them proves your ridiculous arguments.  In fact, by default, the links prove you wrong.





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 11:15AM #380
Erey
Posts: 18,456

I believe slaughter houses, especialy modern and ethical slaughterhouses (as championed by the afore mentioned Temple Grandon) are much more kinder and compassionate than nature.  Nature is brutal, violent and terrifying.  Slaughterhouses are designed to be as quick and painless as possible. 



Also MM is right Cows don't have the same thought processes as humans.  One of the ways the aforementioned Temple Grandon came to fame is she got into the mind of the cow and did a good job of interpreting what they thought and what might have been more comforting and more disturbing.   Cows are "prey animals" .  Meaning they are if left to nature always attacked, killed and eaten. Typically they are still at least partialy alive while their flesh is first ripped from their bones.  



That said, I don't doubt that she did want to get out of there and she wanted to go back to her stall.  Throw her in the middle of the wilderness and she will be positively skittish and freaked out. 


It is compassionate and natural to want to reduce fear when and where we can.  However fear is a normal and natural condition.  Nobody and nothing gets to live without fear, especially humans. 



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