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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 3:40PM #351
Erey
Posts: 18,450

Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:11PM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:09PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 10:15AM, christine3 wrote:

Except for 2 upper and 2 lower teeth comparatively small pointed....


All that shows that we are generalists, not specialists. Every person out there that has actually studied human biology, and biology in general, will attest to that fact. They'll also tell you that we are DEFINITELY not evolved to be complete vegetarians. We are generalists, omnivores, not specifically only meat or only veggies.




Actually I think we are evolved for a diet with a large proportion of seeds, tubers, fruits, complemented by small quantities of animal protein. The relative proportions are flexible as evidenced by diets dominated by animal protein in arctic locations.


What we are not evolved for is a diet of nightly ten-ounce medium rare steaks.




I am not a person that speaks with high authority on our evolutionary ideal diet.  I don't think you do either.  But I am compelled to point out in hunter gatherer societies when a kill is made they might gobble a 10 ounce portion of meat and then some.  They have a reputation for feast or famine eating to gorging then eating very little until the next kill which might take days. 



I think alot of what makes a steak naughty food has to do more with a lack of exercise and physical exertion of modern, civilized life than it does with the fat and colesterol of the steak.  Again, I am trying to just join in and not assume any real authority.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 3:57PM #352
Jasr
Posts: 11,134

Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:40PM, Erey wrote:


I am not a person that speaks with high authority on our evolutionary ideal diet.  I don't think you do either.  But I am compelled to point out in hunter gatherer societies when a kill is made they might gobble a 10 ounce portion of meat and then some.  They have a reputation for feast or famine eating to gorging then eating very little until the next kill which might take days. 





Well I was an anthropology major back in the day, but it was a long time ago.


It varies greatly with the terrain, but quite a few hunter gatherer societies were more dependent for their protein on the gathering than they were on the hunting.


But you are right...if a band killed a reindeer or a giraffe...they would eat meat for as long as possible.


The point is...we are definitely evolved to be omnivores, and we are probably healthiest (and the planet and the rest of the human race is healthiest) when we consume animal protein in small proportions relative to the amount of vegetable protein we eat.


And I would also counsel my fellow humans to be creative about it, and favor animal sources like non-sentient shellfish as well as humanely derived eggs and dairy, because while I am an omnivore myself I do not feel good about eating the flesh of an animal that was terrorized or mistreated before it was slaughtered.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:09PM #353
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:57PM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 3:40PM, Erey wrote:


I am not a person that speaks with high authority on our evolutionary ideal diet.  I don't think you do either.  But I am compelled to point out in hunter gatherer societies when a kill is made they might gobble a 10 ounce portion of meat and then some.  They have a reputation for feast or famine eating to gorging then eating very little until the next kill which might take days. 





Well I was an anthropology major back in the day, but it was a long time ago.


It varies greatly with the terrain, but quite a few hunter gatherer societies were more dependent for their protein on the gathering than they were on the hunting.


But you are right...if a band killed a reindeer or a giraffe...they would eat meat for as long as possible.


The point is...we are definitely evolved to be omnivores, and we are probably healthiest (and the planet and the rest of the human race is healthiest) when we consume animal protein in small proportions relative to the amount of vegetable protein we eat.


And I would also counsel my fellow humans to be creative about it, and favor animal sources like non-sentient shellfish as well as humanely derived eggs and dairy, because while I am an omnivore myself I do not feel good about eating the flesh of an animal that was terrorized or mistreated before it was slaughtered.




Your approach seems both factually accurate and ethically sound.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:30PM #354
arielg
Posts: 9,116


We are constantly reducing the discussion to teeth, length of intestines and other materiality and biological aspects.


But we are not just animals. Human characteristics, ethics, states of mind, feelings,  should all be part of it.


Some cuisines place  a lot of emphasis on  esthetics and  food presentation, smells, because they have as much importance as the food.  We start eating with our eyes and emotions. We heard a lot of times how one should not eat when in a disturbed state of mind.


We are not just predators.  We should go beyond biology.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 4:53PM #355
teilhard
Posts: 50,122

Indeed.


As previously already extensively repeatedly noted, we Human Beings are "Omnivores" ...


We are indeed NOT "Predators" OR "Frugivores" OR "Grazers" OR "Browsers" ... We are Opportunistic Feeders who can and do eat just about ANYTHING ...


Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:30PM, arielg wrote:



We are constantly reducing the discussion to teeth, length of intestines and other materiality and biological aspects.


But we are not just animals. Human characteristics, ethics, states of mind, feelings,  should all be part of it.


Some cuisines place  a lot of emphasis on  esthetics and  food presentation, because they have as much importance as the food.  We start eating with our eyes and emotions. We heard a lot of times how one should not eat when in a disturbed state of mind.


We are not just predators.  We should go beyond biology.





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 5:46PM #356
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:30PM, arielg wrote:



We are constantly reducing the discussion to teeth, length of intestines and other materiality and biological aspects.


But we are not just animals. Human characteristics, ethics, states of mind, feelings,  should all be part of it.


Some cuisines place  a lot of emphasis on  esthetics and  food presentation, smells, because they have as much importance as the food.  We start eating with our eyes and emotions. We heard a lot of times how one should not eat when in a disturbed state of mind.


We are not just predators.  We should go beyond biology.





I agree. I take issue only with you talking about your path beyond biology -- so to speak -- as if it were the only one.


Any time a perspective tries to boldy argue a monopoly on something, that, to me, is a sure sign it's bereft of that very thing. 


What you try to argue strikes me a bit like saying that celebacy is the one and only good option to get beyond my biologically-driven base urge as a robust male to just want to screw every desirable female I can get my hands on. And anybody who doesn't disavow screwing (or even feeling horny) is just a moral deliquent.


Well, no, curbing and controling things down to an admiring eye for my wife's figure and a healthy sex life with her alone is also a good option. For getting "beyond my biology," so to speak. 


Similarly, there is more than one good option to curbing the biological urge to just "kill-eat-kill," as it were, with no regard whatsoever for the welfare of the creatures we slay and gobble. 


Temple Grandin, for example, certainly gives plenty of consideration to ethics and the feelings of animals. 


Moderated by Stardove on Apr 24, 2012 - 08:05PM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 6:06PM #357
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:53PM, teilhard wrote:


Indeed.


As previously already extensively repeatedly noted, we Human Beings are "Omnivores" ...


We are indeed NOT "Predators" OR "Frugivores" OR "Grazers" OR "Browsers" ... We are Opportunistic Feeders who can and do eat just about ANYTHING ...


Apr 24, 2012 -- 4:30PM, arielg wrote:



We are constantly reducing the discussion to teeth, length of intestines and other materiality and biological aspects.


But we are not just animals. Human characteristics, ethics, states of mind, feelings,  should all be part of it.


Some cuisines place  a lot of emphasis on  esthetics and  food presentation, because they have as much importance as the food.  We start eating with our eyes and emotions. We heard a lot of times how one should not eat when in a disturbed state of mind.


We are not just predators.  We should go beyond biology.








Oh, we are predators. At least some of us are. I'm a very fine predator, and my family reaps the benefits.


I think more precise way of summing up my last post is -- I think human beings are not only, or even primarily, our biology. Of course not. We are creatures of mind, reason and spriit.


That said, our biology is nothing to be afraid or ashamed of. It is something to be tempered and controled. To be applied in a measured manner, when the situation calls for it. 


I'm no more ashamed of my predatory instincts as a hunter in the field every fall, than I am of my sexuality when I get frisky with my wife. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 6:06PM #358
teilhard
Posts: 50,122

Yes ... Some of my own Coming-of-Age and Coming-to-Terms Struggle with Animal Rights was facilitated in my Experiences as a Student in Biology Labs ...


One of my Profs -- a VERY No-Nonsense Professional Scientist -- was VERY clear in his Language about the Animals we used in Experiments ... He talked about (these are his exact Words) "sacrificing" a Lab Animal ... In The Vivarium -- where I worked part-Time -- RESPECT for fellow Creatures (BOTH Animals AND Plants) was EXPECTED ... 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 6:12PM #359
solfeggio
Posts: 8,953

Human bodies are not structurally adapted to the true omnivore diet. And it doesn't matter what our paleolithic ancestors ate or didn't eat after they discovered fire and could cook their meat and make it edible. 


As we evolved as a species, we did not evolve into a species that could out-run a gazelle and take it down with our bare hands, not did we evolve into meat-eaters with the proper fang-like teeth to tear raw muscle tissue off the bone.


To say that we did is preposterous.


We're behavioural omnivores in that we eat whatever we please.  But that doesn't mean that eating whatever we please is necessarily good for us.  For example, the link between the saturated fat found in all animal flesh has long been connected to the formation of fatty arterial plaques that are associated with cardiovascular disease.


If we were true omnivores, we could eat all the meat we wished without harmful effects.


Obviously, this is not the case.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 24, 2012 - 6:43PM #360
teilhard
Posts: 50,122

Well, yeah ...


And a Human Being who would eat only Leaves and Grass wouldn't do very well, either ... Our Biological Adaptation -- Teeth, Gut, Physiology (AND Culture) -- is to eat a VARIETY of Foods opportunistically ... Exactly so ...


Apr 24, 2012 -- 6:12PM, solfeggio wrote:


Human bodies are not structurally adapted to the true omnivore diet. And it doesn't matter what our paleolithic ancestors ate or didn't eat after they discovered fire and could cook their meat and make it edible. 


As we evolved as a species, we did not evolve into a species that could out-run a gazelle and take it down with our bare hands, not did we evolve into meat-eaters with the proper fang-like teeth to tear raw muscle tissue off the bone.


To say that we did is preposterous.


We're behavioural omnivores in that we eat whatever we please.  But that doesn't mean that eating whatever we please is necessarily good for us.  For example, the link between the saturated fat found in all animal flesh has long been connected to the formation of fatty arterial plaques that are associated with cardiovascular disease.


If we were true omnivores, we could eat all the meat we wished without harmful effects.


Obviously, this is not the case.





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