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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 12:23AM #321
mountain_man
Posts: 39,145

Apr 20, 2012 -- 10:46PM, jane2 wrote:

So you disagree with DesCartes. I tend to agree with him. Disagreeing on a discussion board is not criticizing--it's just disagreeing.


Some find that disagreement a personal thing. I, and many others, disagree with Descartes Cogito. Sum ergo cogito would be a better way to put it. Anyway, he was trying to prove that he existed. The PB&J sandwich I had for lunch existed but it never had a thought. Many things that do not think exist. Kierkegaard had a pretty good rebuttal.


Animals may have consciousness but that was not what DesCartes was about....


He would have gone along with the creationists, and the beliefs of his time, that humans are a special creation and would have also gone along with the churches teaching that cows, and other animals, were put here for us to eat. Although.... I believe he had to include a proof of a god or the church would have black listed his writings. His "by the light of nature" is not up to his normal standards of argument. Anyway, he would have enjoyed a nice piece of meat for dinner after coming up with his Cogito so trying to use him as a poster boy for vegetarianism won't work.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 21, 2012 - 6:24PM #322
solfeggio
Posts: 9,128

Considering that Descartes believed that nonhuman animals were nothing more than machines, devoid of mind and consciousness, I would hardly think that he would have been a vegetarian.


As he put it: 'They eat without pleasure, cry without pain, grow without knowing it.'


He did believe that nonhuman physiology was similar to human physiology as regards functions such as heartbeat and respiration that did not involve intelligence or consciousness.


He felt that nonhuman animals could always be distinguished from humans by the fact that humans were capable of a greater variety of actitivities, and only humans used language in a creative way.


In years to come, of course, scientists studying animal behaviour have discovered that Descartes was wrong in his conclusions about animals.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 1:18PM #323
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,155

jane2:  I do not equate animal life with human life.


I do and I don't.  I don't in the sense that obviously I'm going to suggest my species needs an edge (albeit not one that bites us later in the ass, like overhunting or pollution).  I do in the sense that we are all part of the food web and thus are all equal.  The hard part is admitting that everyone comes to the game with different starting points.  I'm a superior being up until facing an animal bigger, faster, or otherwise more deadly than I am.  I am far more superior to the mosquito, but malaria or West Nile suck ass.  If I had to hunt a deer, I would be fine if it gored me with antlers.  After all, it's a predator-PREY relationship.  It's not at all one-sided.  Naturally, I want to be the one who won, but that's natural selection for you:  either I was good enough to win or I wasn't.


Erey:  BULLSHIT, BULL FUKING-SHIT!  Nobody here is anti-vegetarian.  That is a lie and a shamefull one.


I think Solf would suggest a lionness should eat tofu instead of the gazelle.  Not every vegetarian is like that, though.  On the other hand, I don't know why I must honor the grizzly bear who eats salmon and yet I can't (ok, I don't like fish much, but whatever, LOL).


christine3:  I don't like the state of the world as it is now, where some people have millions, billions, and others are one meal away from starvation.  It just isn't right.


Agreed.  What I would like to see is some sort of financial incentive (though it irks me for possible health issues) for the food industry to send food to needy places (shelters, etc) instead of tossing it because tomorrow is expiration date day or something.  We waste so much and it's a complete shame.


I would also like to see community pantries, like in individual subdivisions.  That way, if someone within that very small community has a problem, they can just go and get it.


There has to be a better system than what we have now.


jane2:  We would not permit our older daughter to major in psychology unless she was prepared to pursue a PhD. Otherwise it is not a productive degree.


*cough* I have a Bachelor's in it.  Yes, I know I can't use that professionally (as a shrink).  However, I see many nurses who compound patient emotional issues when some simple psychological training could alleviate all that nonsense. I think combined with other professions, even the lowest degrees in psychology can be useful.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 2:15PM #324
christine3
Posts: 6,996

Apr 22, 2012 -- 1:18PM, Iwantamotto wrote:

What I would like to see is some sort of financial incentive (though it irks me for possible health issues) for the food industry to send food to needy places (shelters, etc) instead of tossing it because tomorrow is expiration date day or something.  We waste so much and it's a complete shame.


I would also like to see community pantries, like in individual subdivisions.  That way, if someone within that very small community has a problem, they can just go and get it.


There has to be a better system than what we have now.




There is an incentive program in northern california that gives food with expiration date to shelters, homeless and needy.  About 4 years ago I needed to go get food at a local church that was a hand out station...and let me tell you, it was much appreciated.  


Community gardens are needed not just for food, but to get people together.  



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:51PM #325
Erey
Posts: 18,594

Apr 21, 2012 -- 12:03AM, christine3 wrote:


Apr 20, 2012 -- 10:14PM, Erey wrote:


What people here are against is being told the reasons they eat meat are:


They are stupid, mindless, greedy, unthinking, bloodthirsty and cruel.


That is the kind of nonsense people here are against.  Which makes you one werid little girl because you claim to eat meat but jump right in with this bizzare diologue on horrible meat eaters are, whatever your personal problem.




I haven't read those words.  That is the way you feel?  Nobody can make you feel that way unless you allow it.  (a little advice on self-empowerment, which you already know).


People have written that the system is stupid, mindless, greedy, unthinking, bloodthirsty (I'm not sure about that one) and cruel.


So there's a difference.  If you are taking these things personally, you shouldn't.  Comments about the system are not directly about you.




The System?  No all these things have been said Adnasuem over and over again on this board about people THAT EAT MEAT.  Simply people that eat meat.  Over and blinking over again.


I pulled my punches for about a year and let it go.  Finally, I am just over it.  If you don't eat meat, good for you.  If your diet works for you, I am thrilled.  I think some people can get do fairly well meatless.  In either way, I am not here to convince any healthy person they should or should not eat meat.  


I believe hunting is a very responsible way to get that meat and probably one of the kinder ways to do so.  My father was a hunter all during his youth and young adult hood and after that he enjoyed many years as a fisherman.  So yeah, I do get peeved when posters describe what evil monsters hunters are.  I also get peeved when I am told over and over again that if I were capable of anything besides "group think" I would not eat meat.  Because clearly a meatless diet is the only wa to be healthy.  


we all have our limits.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 1:16AM #326
solfeggio
Posts: 9,128

Some of the things people say in these threads are so obtuse, stupid and idotic that you really have to wonder.


A comment made by one poster that I would like to see lions eat tofu rather than gazelles is one such remark.


Never have I ever said that wild animals should follow a different lifestyle.  Never have I complained about what happens in the natural world.  Nonhuman animals follow their instincts and eat whatever they are physically adapted to eat.


Coyotes chase rabbits and kill them.  Lions hunt herbivores and kill them.  Sharks kill and eat fish.  Even chimpanzees kill small mammals.


With humans, though, it's a whole different situation.  We can pick and choose what we want to eat.  And we're not physically adapted to eating flesh.


www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.ht...


Dairy is not our natural food, either, for that matter.  By the time of the Neolithic Revolution, when people started to grow crops and produce dairy products, about nine thousand years ago, we were already long since evolved into our present shape.


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 9:38AM #327
mountain_man
Posts: 39,145

Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:16AM, solfeggio wrote:

Some of the things people say in these threads are so obtuse, stupid and idotic[sic] that you really have to wonder.


And they all come from those that claim to be vegetarian.


...And we're not physically adapted to eating flesh.


That's a perfect example. Humans are adapted to eating meat. Our dentition and digestion both show that we evolved as omnivores; we are able to eat a wide variety of foods.


Dairy is not our natural food...


Another example. What is a "natural" food? Grain is not our "natural" food. Neither is soy, or corn. So don't give us any BS about what is or is not "natural." Milk is just fine for most people.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 9:54AM #328
christine3
Posts: 6,996

Apr 22, 2012 -- 11:51PM, Erey wrote:


So yeah, I do get peeved 




I get your point, but try not exaggerating like calling people "evil monsters" and maybe they won't get upset at you either. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 9:57AM #329
christine3
Posts: 6,996

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:38AM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:16AM, solfeggio wrote:

Some of the things people say in these threads are so obtuse, stupid and idotic[sic] that you really have to wonder.




And they all come from those that claim to be vegetarian.




That is so untrue and counterproductive.    

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 10:15AM #330
christine3
Posts: 6,996

Apr 23, 2012 -- 9:38AM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 23, 2012 -- 1:16AM, solfeggio wrote:

Some of the things people say in these threads are so obtuse, stupid and idotic[sic] that you really have to wonder.


And they all come from those that claim to be vegetarian.


...And we're not physically adapted to eating flesh.


That's a perfect example. Humans are adapted to eating meat. Our dentition and digestion both show that we evolved as omnivores; we are able to eat a wide variety of foods.


Dairy is not our natural food...


Another example. What is a "natural" food? Grain is not our "natural" food. Neither is soy, or corn. So don't give us any BS about what is or is not "natural." Milk is just fine for most people.




No, it is not.


Except for 2 upper and 2 lower teeth comparatively small pointed (which are smaller than they had been in excavations for early man), the majority of teeth are for vegetable matter, biting off in a clipping fashion and are for grinding. Humans have evolved to eat less and less meat.  They have longer intestines and are not like meat-eaters in that they are not built for speed.  


It is not fair that you exaggerate and call people BSers. 


Studies show that humans absorb calcium better from plant sources than cow's milk.


www.lanimuelrath.com/diet-nutrition/plan...



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