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Switch to Forum Live View Zimmerman Arrested On Murder Charge In Trayvon Martin Case
3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 12:39PM #41
arielg
Posts: 9,116

LOL ...


Right NOW, the Human "Rabid Dog" ("Night Stalker;" Shooter-of-Unarmed-Teenage-Youth ) (You forgot to mention here  that he was just carrying a bag of Skittles) is being held in a Kind of Quarantine while The Community (appropriately) decides WHAT to DO with the Guy ...

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:06PM #42
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,786

Apr 13, 2012 -- 8:14PM, REteach wrote:


You know, I actually feel sorry for George Zimmerman. But Trayvon Martin is permanently, irrevocably DEAD for the crime of returning to his dad's residence after picking up Skittles and tea.  DEAD.  DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD.  I mean, really.  sheesh.




Unfortunately no an awful lot of people do not care about the person who is dead.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 2:15PM #43
teilhard
Posts: 51,511

Yes ... The "Night Stalker" unintentionally ruined his OWN Life as well as utterly DESTROYING the Life of Trayvon Martin ...


Apr 14, 2012 -- 2:06PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 8:14PM, REteach wrote:


You know, I actually feel sorry for George Zimmerman. But Trayvon Martin is permanently, irrevocably DEAD for the crime of returning to his dad's residence after picking up Skittles and tea.  DEAD.  DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD.  I mean, really.  sheesh.




Unfortunately no an awful lot of people do not care about the person who is dead.





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 3:29PM #44
mindis1
Posts: 7,951

Apr 13, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Nepenthe wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:14PM, rabello wrote:


Fortunately the prosecution's affadavit starts at the beginning of the story, stating the obvious -- that Zimmerman profiled this kid who was doing nothing wrong and then followed him instead of waiting for the "Dial A Prayer" officer(s) to arrive -- and not at the point Zimmerman "had" to use his gun




I was just reading about the affadavit and how horrible it was written.  Hopefuly it will not hurt the situation.


How Not To Draft A Probable Cause Affidavit


This makes the argumentative and conclusory elements of the affivadit that much more problematical.  For instance, the affidavit states that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin.  But it's impossible to determine if (1) that's the affiant's characterization of the narrative that follows, or (2) that's intended as a separate factual assertion based on unspecified facts or evidence or witnesses.  Similarly, the affidavit makes numerous statements about what Zimmerman thought or intended.  It is impossible to determine whether these statements are (1) conclusions based on Zimmerman's actions and statements to the 911 dispatcher, (2) admissions Zimmerman made in some unspecified statement, or (3) mere argument...


This is not the worst affidavit I've ever seen — but it's damn close, and the decision to proceed based on it in such a high-profile case is stunning.  Cynics may say that I've been spoiled by federal practice, where affidavits are on average considerably more careful and well-drafted, particularly in some districts.  But if it takes a high-profile case to highlight shoddy practices in everyday cases, so be it.  An affidavit like this makes a mockery of the probable cause process.  There's no way that a judge reading this affidavit can make an intelligent or informed decision about the sufficiency of the evidence — even for the low hurdle of probable cause. 



Alan Dershowitz also doesn't think much of it:



“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”


Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz...


 


 


“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”




It is a stunning affidavit:  www.popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/...It’s difficult to believe it isn’t a deliberate attempt to sabotage the case, to get the case thrown out. After all, the prosecutor probably knows enough to recognize that she doesn’t want to go to trial with this losing case.


Assuming deliberate sabotage is not what the prosecutor is trying to do, apparently her strategy is to try to argue that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged or had engaged in neighborhood break-ins was just a matter of Zimmerman racially “profiling”. The affidavit says:  


During the recorded call Zimmerman made reference to people he felt had committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood.


This is all the defense Zimmerman needs in order to get the case thrown out under Florida’s “stand your ground” law. I had not heard Zimmerman make this comment on any of the recordings I heard. The “neighborhood watch volunteer” Zimmerman had “reason to believe” that Martin--someone Zimmerman had never seen in this gated community before--was engaged or had engaged in one or more of the neighborhood break-ins. So the prosecutor apparently plans to argue that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged in unlawful activity was not “reasonable” but was just a matter of racial “profiling” by Zimmerman (which is undoubtedly true). The problem is, it’s inconsequential. There is no law forbidding a “neighborhood watch volunteer” from racially profiling people he wishes to stop and question. In fact, lots of people (especially probably lots of Floridians) would say that when a “neighborhood watch volunteer” knows that most neighborhood break-ins have been committed by black teens, it’s only reasonable to have heightened suspicion about an unknown black teenager in a hoodie in a gated community.


Under Florida’s “stand your ground” law, the prosecutor must rebut Zimmerman’s declared “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged or had engaged in unlawful activity such as a break-in. The prosecutor has no grounds for rebutting that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” was reasonable--this is fatal to the case. So she is trying to make the suggestion that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” was just a matter of racial profiling. Big deal. There’s nothing wrong with Zimmerman racially profiling.


The initial investigators evidently understood the facts (and the law) well enough to know there was no reason to bother arresting Zimmerman.


With this affidavit, I have even less confidence than before that this case will go to trial. Even if the judge doesn’t throw out the case, it is still sunk. Even if it goes to trial and there is a conviction, the conviction is sunk. I don’t see Zimmerman ever spending a day in prison on this. Maybe he and Casey Anthony will get together and write a book about their ordeal.  


The fact remains that in most states, and in Florida before its “stand your ground” law, Zimmerman would have been immediately charged with first degree murder (including being tested for intoxication--he really sounded slighted intoxicated to me in the tapes, but we will never know). Americans need to be outraged over these and other NRA-sponsored laws.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 3:50PM #45
Stardove
Posts: 15,579

Apr 13, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Nepenthe wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:14PM, rabello wrote:


Fortunately the prosecution's affadavit starts at the beginning of the story, stating the obvious -- that Zimmerman profiled this kid who was doing nothing wrong and then followed him instead of waiting for the "Dial A Prayer" officer(s) to arrive -- and not at the point Zimmerman "had" to use his gun




I was just reading about the affadavit and how horrible it was written.  Hopefuly it will not hurt the situation.


How Not To Draft A Probable Cause Affidavit


This makes the argumentative and conclusory elements of the affivadit that much more problematical.  For instance, the affidavit states that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin.  But it's impossible to determine if (1) that's the affiant's characterization of the narrative that follows, or (2) that's intended as a separate factual assertion based on unspecified facts or evidence or witnesses.  Similarly, the affidavit makes numerous statements about what Zimmerman thought or intended.  It is impossible to determine whether these statements are (1) conclusions based on Zimmerman's actions and statements to the 911 dispatcher, (2) admissions Zimmerman made in some unspecified statement, or (3) mere argument...


This is not the worst affidavit I've ever seen — but it's damn close, and the decision to proceed based on it in such a high-profile case is stunning.  Cynics may say that I've been spoiled by federal practice, where affidavits are on average considerably more careful and well-drafted, particularly in some districts.  But if it takes a high-profile case to highlight shoddy practices in everyday cases, so be it.  An affidavit like this makes a mockery of the probable cause process.  There's no way that a judge reading this affidavit can make an intelligent or informed decision about the sufficiency of the evidence — even for the low hurdle of probable cause. 



Alan Dershowitz also doesn't think much of it:



“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”


Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz...


“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”




Here is a link to the Zimmerman Affidavit of Probable Cause:


media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/6935...


Please note it says near the end, "The facts mentioned in this Affidavit are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but are only presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder."

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 10:52PM #46
teilhard
Posts: 51,511

*** You're kidding, right ... ???  The Suggestion seems to be that "The Night Stalker" had some Kind of god-like Knowledge of WHO was breaking-in in the Neighborhood ... ???  Furthermore, all of a sudden, in America,  routine "Racial Profiling" is OKAY ... ???  What ... ???


And ... ummmm ... SHOOTING an unarmed Kid just for being "Black" and wearing a "Hoodie" is ... REASONABLE ... ???


Apr 14, 2012 -- 3:29PM, mindis1 wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 9:48PM, Nepenthe wrote:


Apr 13, 2012 -- 4:14PM, rabello wrote:


Fortunately the prosecution's affadavit starts at the beginning of the story, stating the obvious -- that Zimmerman profiled this kid who was doing nothing wrong and then followed him instead of waiting for the "Dial A Prayer" officer(s) to arrive -- and not at the point Zimmerman "had" to use his gun




I was just reading about the affadavit and how horrible it was written.  Hopefuly it will not hurt the situation.


How Not To Draft A Probable Cause Affidavit


This makes the argumentative and conclusory elements of the affivadit that much more problematical.  For instance, the affidavit states that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin.  But it's impossible to determine if (1) that's the affiant's characterization of the narrative that follows, or (2) that's intended as a separate factual assertion based on unspecified facts or evidence or witnesses.  Similarly, the affidavit makes numerous statements about what Zimmerman thought or intended.  It is impossible to determine whether these statements are (1) conclusions based on Zimmerman's actions and statements to the 911 dispatcher, (2) admissions Zimmerman made in some unspecified statement, or (3) mere argument...


This is not the worst affidavit I've ever seen — but it's damn close, and the decision to proceed based on it in such a high-profile case is stunning.  Cynics may say that I've been spoiled by federal practice, where affidavits are on average considerably more careful and well-drafted, particularly in some districts.  But if it takes a high-profile case to highlight shoddy practices in everyday cases, so be it.  An affidavit like this makes a mockery of the probable cause process.  There's no way that a judge reading this affidavit can make an intelligent or informed decision about the sufficiency of the evidence — even for the low hurdle of probable cause. 



Alan Dershowitz also doesn't think much of it:



“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”


Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz...


 


 


“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”




It is a stunning affidavit:  www.popehat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/...It’s difficult to believe it isn’t a deliberate attempt to sabotage the case, to get the case thrown out. After all, the prosecutor probably knows enough to recognize that she doesn’t want to go to trial with this losing case.


Assuming deliberate sabotage is not what the prosecutor is trying to do, apparently her strategy is to try to argue that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged or had engaged in neighborhood break-ins was just a matter of Zimmerman racially “profiling”. The affidavit says:  


During the recorded call Zimmerman made reference to people he felt had committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood.


This is all the defense Zimmerman needs in order to get the case thrown out under Florida’s “stand your ground” law. I had not heard Zimmerman make this comment on any of the recordings I heard. The “neighborhood watch volunteer” Zimmerman had “reason to believe” that Martin--someone Zimmerman had never seen in this gated community before--was engaged or had engaged in one or more of the neighborhood break-ins. So the prosecutor apparently plans to argue that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged in unlawful activity was not “reasonable” but was just a matter of racial “profiling” by Zimmerman (which is undoubtedly true). The problem is, it’s inconsequential. There is no law forbidding a “neighborhood watch volunteer” from racially profiling people he wishes to stop and question. In fact, lots of people (especially probably lots of Floridians) would say that when ***a “neighborhood watch volunteer” knows that most neighborhood break-ins have been committed by black teens, it’s only reasonable to have heightened suspicion about an unknown black teenager in a hoodie in a gated community.


Under Florida’s “stand your ground” law, the prosecutor must rebut Zimmerman’s declared “reason to believe” that Martin was engaged or had engaged in unlawful activity such as a break-in. The prosecutor has no grounds for rebutting that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” was reasonable--this is fatal to the case. So she is trying to make the suggestion that Zimmerman’s “reason to believe” was just a matter of racial profiling. Big deal. ***There’s nothing wrong with Zimmerman racially profiling.


The initial investigators evidently understood the facts (and the law) well enough to know there was no reason to bother arresting Zimmerman.


With this affidavit, I have even less confidence than before that this case will go to trial. Even if the judge doesn’t throw out the case, it is still sunk. Even if it goes to trial and there is a conviction, the conviction is sunk. I don’t see Zimmerman ever spending a day in prison on this. Maybe he and Casey Anthony will get together and write a book about their ordeal.  


The fact remains that in most states, and in Florida before its “stand your ground” law, Zimmerman would have been immediately charged with first degree murder (including being tested for intoxication--he really sounded slighted intoxicated to me in the tapes, but we will never know). Americans need to be outraged over these and other NRA-sponsored laws.





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:06PM #47
arielg
Posts: 9,116

*** You're kidding, right ... ???  The Suggestion seems to be that "The Night Stalker" had some Kind of god-like Knowledge of WHO was breaking-in in the Neighborhood ... ???  Furthermore, all of a sudden, in America,  routine "Racial Profiling" is OKAY ... ???  What ... ???


Welcome back to the real world.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 14, 2012 - 11:07PM #48
teilhard
Posts: 51,511

* sigh * ...


Apr 14, 2012 -- 11:06PM, arielg wrote:


*** You're kidding, right ... ???  The Suggestion seems to be that "The Night Stalker" had some Kind of god-like Knowledge of WHO was breaking-in in the Neighborhood ... ???  Furthermore, all of a sudden, in America,  routine "Racial Profiling" is OKAY ... ???  What ... ???


Welcome back to the real world.





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 10:10AM #49
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Reading the majority of posts, I am convinced Zimmerman can never receive a fair trial' he has already been convicted by the media and the court of public opinion.


Opinion always trumps truth.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 15, 2012 - 10:30AM #50
teilhard
Posts: 51,511

I have more Faith in our Legal System than you do ...


I also have more Confidence in our First Amendment Free Press Arrangements ...  


The Alternative to the Publicity and Public Discussions about such Cases would be Secret Arrests, News Blackouts and Prior Restraint ... Would our Society REALLY be better served if a Guy like Zimmerman was just "disappeared" for a few Months while undergoing The Legal Process ... ???


"What HAPPENED down the Block last Night ... ???  Nobody knows ... The Police won't say anything, and there is NOTHING in the Papers ... Where's George ... ???"


Apr 15, 2012 -- 10:10AM, Marcion wrote:


Reading the majority of posts, I am convinced Zimmerman can never receive a fair trial' he has already been convicted by the media and the court of public opinion.


Opinion always trumps truth.





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