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Switch to Forum Live View Another Great Depression?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:12AM #21
teilhard
Posts: 48,394

Climate Change is The Problem getting the most Attention and which is becoming more and more obvious ... But it is not happening in isolation from ALL the OTHER Difficulties we have brought upon ourselves and all the other Species as well ...


LOTS of very well-intended but naive Folks think we can fudge our Way OUT of the coming Eco-Catastrophes by using more of the funny twisty Light Bulbs, recycling more faithfully, growing some Veggies in the Backyard and biking more/driving less ... Those are ALL good Things to do, but they fail to address our POPULATION Problem and all of the Ecological Effects of THAT ... There are simply too many of us no matter HOW carefully we learn to live ...


Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:05AM, Ebon wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 8:33PM, teilhard wrote:

Global Climate Change is not "The Problem" ... It is ONE of the more obvious Indications that there are too MANY of us relentlessly altering Global EcoSystems EVERYWHERE ...



True but climate change is the most pressing problem currently. It's the one we need to deal with either first or in conjunction with the others.


There will BE no Solution until AFTER The Crash, after which re-Adaptation to a Globally Changed Planet will be our only Hope ... My Hunch is that Indigenous Peoples who STILL know how to Live Off The Land, make Things, gather and harvest Foods locally opportunistically, will have the BEST Chance ... 



Sadly, I suspect you're right. Too many people have too much vested in the current state of affairs to admit the possibility of change before some catastrophe.






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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:24AM #22
Ebon
Posts: 9,835

Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:12AM, teilhard wrote:

Climate Change is The Problem getting the most Attention and which is becoming more and more obvious ... But it is not happening in isolation from ALL the OTHER Difficulties we have brought upon ourselves and all the other Species as well ...


LOTS of very well-intended but naive Folks think we can fudge our Way OUT of the coming Eco-Catastrophes by using more of the funny twisty Light Bulbs, recycling more faithfully, growing some Veggies in the Backyard and biking more/driving less ... Those are ALL good Things to do, but they fail to address our POPULATION Problem and all of the Ecological Effects of THAT ... There are simply too many of us no matter HOW carefully we learn to live ...



As I said on the thread about the Dugars, runaway population growth does nobody any favours. I spitballed a few ideas of how to start fixing it there. Beyond that, we need to get off this rock and into the infinity of space.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:32AM #23
teilhard
Posts: 48,394

I don't think we're going ...


Putting a Colony on The Moon and then on Mars has I think now been relegated to Science Fantasy ...  As the global Economies increasingly become unstable and "tank," we're not going to have the political Will for such Adventures ...


Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:24AM, Ebon wrote:


Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:12AM, teilhard wrote:

Climate Change is The Problem getting the most Attention and which is becoming more and more obvious ... But it is not happening in isolation from ALL the OTHER Difficulties we have brought upon ourselves and all the other Species as well ...


LOTS of very well-intended but naive Folks think we can fudge our Way OUT of the coming Eco-Catastrophes by using more of the funny twisty Light Bulbs, recycling more faithfully, growing some Veggies in the Backyard and biking more/driving less ... Those are ALL good Things to do, but they fail to address our POPULATION Problem and all of the Ecological Effects of THAT ... There are simply too many of us no matter HOW carefully we learn to live ...



As I said on the thread about the Dugars, runaway population growth does nobody any favours. I spitballed a few ideas of how to start fixing it there. Beyond that, we need to get off this rock and into the infinity of space.





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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:40AM #24
vra
Posts: 6,327

Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:24AM, Ebon wrote:


...Beyond that, we need to get off this rock and into the infinity of space.




I don't know if you caught Steven Hawkings similar feeling on this when he said it a couple of years ago, so let me put it in brief.


He said that, as humans, we have a built-in mechanism that encourages both egocentrism ("what's in it for me?") and ethnocentrism (group affiliation and loyalty, which also includes nationalism/patriotism), whereas self and group interests trump any kind of global affiliation or global identity.  Because of this, trying to get international cooperation is often very hard to do, but it becomes significantly more difficult if it involves sacrifice either by the individual or the country. 


He called it the "greed factor", and he felt that this makes any consensus and willingness to sacrifice on an international scale very difficult, and he's not optimistic it can be done in terms of population growth and resource depletion.  Even though these are somewhat variable due to different factors, the evidence of our destroying much of Planet Earth is rather obvious if one looks at world history over the long haul.


The "bottom line" is that Hawking just isn't at all optimistic, and he can't picture anything likely to counter these trends.    

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:53AM #25
arielg
Posts: 9,113

He said that, as humans, we have a built-in mechanism that encourages both egocentrism ("what's in it for me?") and ethnocentrism (group affiliation and loyalty, which also includes nationalism/patriotism), whereas self and group interests trump any kind of global affiliation or global identity.  Because of this, trying to get international cooperation is often very hard to do, but it becomes significantly more difficult if it involves sacrifice either by the individual or the country. 


He called it the "greed factor", and he felt that this makes any consensus and willingness to sacrifice on an international scale very difficult, and he's not optimistic it can be done in terms of population growth and resource depletion.  Even though these are somewhat variable due to different factors, the evidence of our destroying much of Planet Earth is rather obvious if one looks at world history over the long haul.




This may be so in the present state of human consciousness. But humans today are not "all they can be".


The best humans are constantly showing  how much more a human being can be. Maybe future societies of humans will learn to apply the teachings of the ages and become less egocentric.



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 11:00AM #26
mountain_man
Posts: 38,097

Apr 6, 2012 -- 9:33AM, vra wrote:

Yes to the above, and it's a wonder to me why some seem to think that those folks over at M.I.T. are ignorant dolts....


The first thing you should realize is who you are agreeing with. He's not got one thing right in the years he's been here. The other thing you should understand is that of you have to purposely misconstrue what others have said, and use an absurd claim such as; "some seem to think that those folks over at M.I.T. are ignorant dolts," that your whole argument is unsupportable by any rational argument.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 1:49PM #27
vra
Posts: 6,327

Apr 6, 2012 -- 10:53AM, arielg wrote:


He said that, as humans, we have a built-in mechanism that encourages both egocentrism ("what's in it for me?") and ethnocentrism (group affiliation and loyalty, which also includes nationalism/patriotism), whereas self and group interests trump any kind of global affiliation or global identity.  Because of this, trying to get international cooperation is often very hard to do, but it becomes significantly more difficult if it involves sacrifice either by the individual or the country. 


He called it the "greed factor", and he felt that this makes any consensus and willingness to sacrifice on an international scale very difficult, and he's not optimistic it can be done in terms of population growth and resource depletion.  Even though these are somewhat variable due to different factors, the evidence of our destroying much of Planet Earth is rather obvious if one looks at world history over the long haul.




This may be so in the present state of human consciousness. But humans today are not "all they can be".


The best humans are constantly showing  how much more a human being can be. Maybe future societies of humans will learn to apply the teachings of the ages and become less egocentric.







I certainly hope so.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 6:41PM #28
Marcion
Posts: 2,883

Right. Do you remember the Ahole who wrote the book, The Great Depression of the 1990's.


The 90's turned out to be economic boomtimes. So much for self appointed prophets.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 7:24PM #29
jane2
Posts: 14,289

Apr 6, 2012 -- 6:41PM, Marcion wrote:


Right. Do you remember the Ahole who wrote the book, The Great Depression of the 1990's.


The 90's turned out to be economic boomtimes. So much for self appointed prophets.




Way to go Marcion. I remember the great "stew" about the Japanese buying some of Rockefeller Center in NYC. It's still Rockefeller Center and we can still dine at the Rainbow Room there.




 

discuss catholicism
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 7:37PM #30
Ebon
Posts: 9,835

Apr 6, 2012 -- 6:41PM, Marcion wrote:

Right. Do you remember the Ahole who wrote the book, The Great Depression of the 1990's.


The 90's turned out to be economic boomtimes. So much for self appointed prophets.



Prophecy is always subject to confirmation bias. We remember the times it was right far more than we remember the numerous times it was wrong. And economics is especially hard to predict, partly because people making such predictions usually have a political axe to grind and partly because technology advances so fast now that any predictions become obsolete by the time you've finished the sentence.

He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. ~ Proverbs 14:31

Fiat justitia, ruat caelum

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