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Switch to Forum Live View Redneck A-holes with guns
2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:56PM #441
headhuntersix
Posts: 63

Jun 2, 2012 -- 1:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

So, again, why is it okay for every other creature, but not human beings?




Because, from their point of view, on the "rights" side of the scales, animals are to be at least our equal, but on the "responsibilities" side, well, after all, they're only animals, we can't expect any better of them. 


I got a good laugh out of the bit about the land where wolves get shot being "their land," seting aside your counter that they're a reintroduced species. Take that lunacy to its ultimate end, and every square milimeter of the earth is the property of a non-human species, none of them currently in existence.  We have no right to exist!  Of course, neither does any living species.  After all, they only raped the land from species now displaced or extinct, who in turn took it from others.  Really, shouldn't we just cleanse the planet of all life, since no living species has a right to whatever slice of the ecosystem it's currently squatting in?  Shouldn't we reclaim the world for the original primordial slime that was brutally disposessed of it by more advanced species, especially those evil multi-celled organisms?


Apparently, the point, though is that when a wolf wanders over and makes a snack of your sheep, it's your fault for being there.  Humans should restrict themselves to those portions of the planet that no other animal wants.  Like...wait, where?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 7:02PM #442
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Jun  2, 2012 --  2:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

So, again, why is it okay for every other creature, but not human beings?


I think we can agree that a grown up, mature person, has more responsibilities  than a child . Why would that be?  Because a mature person knows better. He  has a wider perspective  of life than the child .  The child has no awareness of the ramifications of actions. A grown up  sees beyond the   present moment.


Animals are like children for us, humans. We have more developped intellectual faculties.   We are not limited to what our instincts command us to do. We reason. We have free will.  We know right from wrong. We are more responsible.


 So we cannot just say "well, we are animals too, so we can do what they do".   What prevents us   is the same thing that prevents us from abusing children:  we have moral rules that animals don't have to bother with.  We are grown ups. Fundamentally, morality is nothing but respect for life.  No matter what form it takes, we did not create anything and have no right to dispose of it.


But it takes a grown up to see that.  Not all humans are grown ups.  Morality has to be developped with self awareness. It has to grow like a child grows into an adult.


But, alas, most people are little more than animals.  They cannot see beyond their pettty little egos. So they feel good acting like the animals do.




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 10:58PM #443
solfeggio
Posts: 9,120

You know, honestly, what it all boils down for me, anyway, is that I just don't like the idea of any human thinking that s/he can just use or kill any other species at will, as if other living beings were just put on this earth for humans to use.


And, by the same token, I don't like the idea of humans thinking they can legally kill each other in a war; or that they have the right to kill another human because that person got in front of them in traffic; or that some guy's wife stepped out on him so he feels he has the 'right' to kill the boyfriend; or some jerk has had too many drinks and thinks he can take it out on somebody in a pub some night.


Killing somebody because s/he is gay is not just disgusting but morally wrong.  Killing somebody because s/he has some other skin colour than white is repugnant and morally wrong.  Atrocities done in the name of religion are just plain too horrible to even think about.


There are just too damned many reasons why humans feel they have the right to take a life, any life, human or nonhuman, and I'm sick of people trying to find excuses why it's all right.


It's not all right.  Other animals have the same right to live their lives as humans.  They don't need to be 'culled' or 'harvested' (disgusting, repugnant words) anymore than humans need to be culled or harvested.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 11:03PM #444
solfeggio
Posts: 9,120

arielg -


Definitely, morality has to be developed with self-awareness, which iis the ability to reconcile oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.


In other words, we have to move out of our entrenched cultural behaviour patterns and start to think for ourselves.


And, by the way, if nonhumans like elephants, apes, magpies, and dolphins are believed to be self-aware, why can't other honhumans be this way as well?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 12:02PM #445
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 4, 2012 -- 10:58PM, solfeggio wrote:


You know, honestly, what it all boils down for me, anyway, is that I just don't like the idea of any human thinking that s/he can just use or kill any other species at will, as if other living beings were just put on this earth for humans to use.


And, by the same token, I don't like the idea of humans thinking they can legally kill each other in a war; or that they have the right to kill another human because that person got in front of them in traffic; or that some guy's wife stepped out on him so he feels he has the 'right' to kill the boyfriend; or some jerk has had too many drinks and thinks he can take it out on somebody in a pub some night.


Killing somebody because s/he is gay is not just disgusting but morally wrong.  Killing somebody because s/he has some other skin colour than white is repugnant and morally wrong.  Atrocities done in the name of religion are just plain too horrible to even think about.


There are just too damned many reasons why humans feel they have the right to take a life, any life, human or nonhuman, and I'm sick of people trying to find excuses why it's all right.


It's not all right.  Other animals have the same right to live their lives as humans.  They don't need to be 'culled' or 'harvested' (disgusting, repugnant words) anymore than humans need to be culled or harvested.


 




Solf,


Every creature kills and/or displaces others as a means of protecting its turf or self interest. 


Nobody is talking about what was done before -- a massive campaign of extermination against wolves, just because.


We're implimenting a measured program of managment and control, especially in areas where wolves present a sharp conflict with legitimate human interests. 


The wolves will continue to survive and thrive here. It's a done deal, there will always be an established population of wolves here. They are not going away. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 12:06PM #446
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 4, 2012 -- 7:02PM, arielg wrote:



Jun  2, 2012 --  2:46PM, mytmouse57 wrote:

So, again, why is it okay for every other creature, but not human beings?


I think we can agree that a grown up, mature person, has more responsibilities  than a child . Why would that be?  Because a mature person knows better. He  has a wider perspective  of life than the child .  The child has no awareness of the ramifications of actions. A grown up  sees beyond the   present moment.


Animals are like children for us, humans. We have more developped intellectual faculties.   We are not limited to what our instincts command us to do. We reason. We have free will.  We know right from wrong. We are more responsible.


 So we cannot just say "well, we are animals too, so we can do what they do".   What prevents us   is the same thing that prevents us from abusing children:  we have moral rules that animals don't have to bother with.  We are grown ups. Fundamentally, morality is nothing but respect for life.  No matter what form it takes, we did not create anything and have no right to dispose of it.


But it takes a grown up to see that.  Not all humans are grown ups.  Morality has to be developped with self awareness. It has to grow like a child grows into an adult.


But, alas, most people are little more than animals.  They cannot see beyond their pettty little egos. So they feel good acting like the animals do.







And adults also realize the real world doesn't work like a Disney cartoon in which the animals talk, sing and dance, and people can just join in, with hugs and good feelings all around.


If you live in proximity with large apex predators -- such as wolves, grizzly bears and cougars -- then some measure of control is in order to protect life, property, pets and livestock. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 3:17PM #447
TRUECHRISTIAN
Posts: 1,061

Jun 4, 2012 -- 10:58PM, solfeggio wrote:


"You know, honestly, what it all boils down for me, anyway, is that I just don't like the idea of any human thinking that s/he can just use or kill any other species at will, as if other living beings were just put on this earth for humans to use."


It would be nice if no animal had to kill any other animal. But that is not the way things are.


Other animals were not evolve on this plant "just" for the human beings.   Humans are not the only species of animals that kill other animals.   We because of our evolved intellgence are just better at it than other animals.     


 


"And, by the same token, I don't like the idea of humans thinking they can legally kill each other in a war; or that they have the right to kill another human because that person got in front of them in traffic; or that some guy's wife stepped out on him so he feels he has the 'right' to kill the boyfriend; or some jerk has had too many drinks and thinks he can take it out on somebody in a pub some night.


Killing somebody because s/he is gay is not just disgusting but morally wrong.  Killing somebody because s/he has some other skin colour than white is repugnant and morally wrong.  Atrocities done in the name of religion are just plain too horrible to even think about."


But it is not the same token. I may not like the idea of human beings thinking that they "legally"  kill each other in a war but that doesn't change the fact that they can and do. 


Killing anohter human being beause they are gay, have a different skin color or different religion is a different token and is illegal in most countries.  Different token.


A women might feel that she has the "right" to kill her boyfriend because he had sex with her sister or mother, but it is illegal to kill the bastard.   The token between what an individual thinks is right and what a society thinks is legal is DIFFERENT.


So far as I know if a human being kills another human being "just because the other human being got in front of his car"  the driver will be charged with a crime because it is illegal.  The driver will be chaged with MANslaugter.   If under the same circumstances he killed a different animal the driver would not be charged with manslaughter. 


If a human being was driving a car  and delibrately killed a spider it may not be "right"  but it is definetly not "illegal".   


However if the driver  did the same and a human being was killed it is BOTH "not right" AND "illegal".


 


"There are just too damned many reasons why humans feel they have the right to take a life, any life, human or nonhuman, and I'm sick of people trying to find excuses why it's all right."


So instead you go to the other extreme and think that there are no reasons to take a life, human or non-human.   You seem to think that there are no reasons whatsover for humans to take the life of other animals, human or non-human. 


"It's not all right.  Other animals have the same right to live their lives as humans.  They don't need to be 'culled' or 'harvested' (disgusting, repugnant words) anymore than humans need to be culled or harvested."


I disagree that all other animals have the same right to live their lives as humans.  


I disagree that there is never a need to have them culled or havested.   


 





I could be wrong.
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 4:18PM #448
arielg
Posts: 9,116

And adults also realize the real world doesn't work like a Disney cartoon in which the animals talk, sing and dance, and people can just join in, with hugs and good feelings all around.



This is your usual Mickey Mouse interpretation of what is being said.  You think killing is "to be in touch with the real world", but  respect for life is a  feeling good position for sissies and cowards who do not have the guts to take advantage of our "superiority" over animals. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 4:23PM #449
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

Jun 5, 2012 -- 4:18PM, arielg wrote:


And adults also realize the real world doesn't work like a Disney cartoon in which the animals talk, sing and dance, and people can just join in, with hugs and good feelings all around.



This is your usual Mickey Mouse interpretation of what is being said.  You think killing is "to be in touch with the real world", but  respect for life is a  feeling good position for sissies and cowards who do not have the guts to take advantage of our "superiority" over animals. 





Nice strawman. 


And it's not about a lack of respect for animals, nature or anything else. If I did not love and respect nature and wildlife, I would not live here in the middle of it. That would be like trying to live in Jamaica if one could not stand being around dark-skinned people.


It's about the practicalities of living in close proximity with apex predators.


Until you've done it, perhaps you should quit trying to second-guess and pass judgement on those of us who do. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 4:43PM #450
arielg
Posts: 9,116

Until you've done it, perhaps you should quit trying to second-guess and pass judgement on those of us who do.


  What is this "until you've done it" crap? I was born and raised in the countryside with the animals.

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