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Switch to Forum Live View Redneck A-holes with guns
5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:13PM #331
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

vra -


I liked your posts in which you talked about your experiences with the fox and your feelings for wild creatures. 


My husband and I both studied Anthro in our varsity days, both undergrad and in grad school (back in the Dark Ages), and I think that one of the best things about anthropology is that it does teach us that we can observe man's activities in the world but do not have to actively participate in those activities.


I'm a big believer in looking but not interfering.  But sometimes I don't always follow that philosophy.


You mentioned being yelled at by a park ranger at one of the national parks.  On a trip to Rocky Mountain National Park a few years back, our group was yelled at by a ranger for feeding one of those cute little chipmunks or squirrels that will come right up to the tourists when you're standing at the tree line.


One of those little guys came right into our car when we opened the door!


Back home, here in our suburban neighbourhood, we often see wild mallard ducks in our driveway, and we've taken to throwing them some bread in the mornings.  (I can't imagine why the ducks have decided to invade our suburb, but maybe it's because they knew they could get a free meal.) 


Once, when we had to have the RSPCA guy out for some reason, he saw the ducks and cautioned us against getting too friendly with wild creatures, as it would make them too trusting.


And this is true.

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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:13PM #332
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 1, 2012 -- 5:32PM, vra wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 4:20PM, rabello wrote:


As an aside, it was in Michigan -- a Great Lakes state -- where my friend's dog (maybe my friend, himself) was almost shot dead by a "shoot-anything-that-moves-Dick Cheney" kind of hunter, who it turns out, was also drunk.  A real "Ted Nugent" kind of guy...Nugent being from Detroit, btw.   With guys like that out there, you wonder why "city slickers" are suspicious of hunters' ethics and behaviors?




 


Better watch what you say there, Bud, as our motto is "Michigan: Where the Weak Are Killed and Eaten".  ;)


BTW, we are now celebrating the fact that Nugent has left and is now living in Texas-- our gain is their loss.




I'm not sure about Ole' Nuge. I've read he's been up on hunting violations more than once. 


There's no doubt, hunters can be their own worst enemies. I had my step-daughter out on one of her first deer hunts last year, and some pea-brains showed up and started blazing away, from behind us, at a deer that was way out of range.


It took me a while to pinpoint where they were, but I finally figured out they were shooting from the road, from inside a pickup, right next to a house.  I was livid, but was not able to get the license plate number. Believe me, I would have turned them in, I know the game wardens around here personally. 

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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:17PM #333
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 1, 2012 -- 6:02PM, solfeggio wrote:


Well, I haven't read through most of mytmouse's posts, mainly because I know him from way back and I know his feelings about hunting and 'managing' wildlife, yada, yada, yada.


But - I was just imaginging that if all mouse's posts were to be taken together and printed out as one document, it would be a fairly lengthy one, and the priniple theme running right through it would always be:


1 - Humans are the superior species and as such have dominion over the natural world and may control it in any ways they choose


2 - Therefore, since humans are the dominant species, it must follow that they also have every right to manage nature by hunting


3 - Domestic animals introduced by humans for human benefit are every bit as important to any ecosystem as the indigenous creatures who were there first


4 - Therefore, eliminating native animals for the express benefit of raising introduced domestic animals is perfectly permissible


It goes without saying that I am 100% against this sort of thinking, and I think I am safe in saying that Rabello and arielg would agree with me here.


As I mentioned in an earlier post (to which nobody responded), Chinese Taoist philosopher Lao Tzu long ago observed that it is unnatural for humans to think they can control what happens in the natural world and that it is wrong to try.




Looks like you need to read my posts, solf. You exaggerated, mis-stated, or simply flat-out missed, my views on several points. Wink


That's okay, I think we've built a grudging respect over the years. Heck, if you and yours ever came out here, I would be willing to show you around some. At the right time of year, I could get you really good looks at some bighorn sheep and Bison. 


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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 6:39PM #334
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

Well, I'll tell ya, mouse, that we did make a trip to Colorado awhile back to visit friends, and we got to see Rocky Mountain National Park.  I was very pleased to be able to get up close and personal for a brief time (along with a lot of other excited tourists) with a herd of elk before they slipped off into the forest.


Seeing the Rocky Mountains wasn't as big a thrill as it might have been had we not lived in a country known for its mountains which are everyday sights to us, but the mountains were awesome just the same.


So, yes, I know where you're coming from when you talk about the wonders of nature.


I just don't go along with killing some of those wonders to keep people in hamburgers.  Goes against my basic thinking that our fellow animals should have the same rights as we do.


And I really don't think humans should try to control what happens in the natural world.


Do you still shoo insects out of your house instead of killing them?  Well, if you do, then you're admitting that they have lives to live that have nothing to do with you, and you're willing to let them do that.


Do you still rescue unwanted dogs?  Well, when you did that, you were showing that you cared about the welfare of another living being.  I just think that that should include deer and wolves, too.  You don't have to adopt them, of course, but why not just let them live their lives however nature intended?  Laughing

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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 7:21PM #335
arielg
Posts: 9,116

As I mentioned in an earlier post (to which nobody responded), Chinese Taoist philosopher Lao Tzu long ago observed that it is unnatural for humans to think they can control what happens in the natural world and that it is wrong to try.


Solfeggio:


That was a beautiful quote that I did not even respond to because  it is so foreign to the hunter's mentality which prevails in these pages that it would be a waste of time to attempt to include it in the discussion.  It would just go over their heads  and  simply be ignored, like it was.


 


 


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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:05PM #336
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 1, 2012 -- 6:39PM, solfeggio wrote:


Well, I'll tell ya, mouse, that we did make a trip to Colorado awhile back to visit friends, and we got to see Rocky Mountain National Park.  I was very pleased to be able to get up close and personal for a brief time (along with a lot of other excited tourists) with a herd of elk before they slipped off into the forest.


Seeing the Rocky Mountains wasn't as big a thrill as it might have been had we not lived in a country known for its mountains which are everyday sights to us, but the mountains were awesome just the same.


So, yes, I know where you're coming from when you talk about the wonders of nature.


I just don't go along with killing some of those wonders to keep people in hamburgers.  Goes against my basic thinking that our fellow animals should have the same rights as we do.


And I really don't think humans should try to control what happens in the natural world.


Do you still shoo insects out of your house instead of killing them?  Well, if you do, then you're admitting that they have lives to live that have nothing to do with you, and you're willing to let them do that.


Do you still rescue unwanted dogs?  Well, when you did that, you were showing that you cared about the welfare of another living being.  I just think that that should include deer and wolves, too.  You don't have to adopt them, of course, but why not just let them live their lives however nature intended?  Laughing





Solf, I would love to see the New Zealand Mountains and Countryside. About the nearest I've come to that is watching Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" movies -- which were filmed there.


Solf, I see no essential difference between shooing an insect out, adopting a dog, and hunting a deer on its own turf. All are respectful to animals. Plus, in the case of dogs, they are helpless and unable to care for themselves. Deer are wild, and have always been hunted, either by humans or other animals. I'm not making the deer do anything unnatural by hunting them.


As far as "managment," Solf, you need to understand -- it's not a matter of micro-managing everything that does, or does not happen in nature. That would be impossible anyway, given the vast size of the ecosystem out here.


You live in a big city, that's the most altered, human controled environment on Earth. And the place where your city is built was once wild country. So, how can you be upset at others "managing" wildlife, to a degree -- when your enviroment is "managed," down to the last detail, for the benifit of humans? Would grizzly bears and wovles be allowed there? I would think not!


Vast areas of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem are still essentially untouched. Wolves, elk, grizzly and numerous other species have millions upon millions of acres to do their thing, without humans trying to mess with or alter any of it. These places include Yellowstone National Park, wilderness areas and National Forests. As one moves further away from the inner core of the wild lands, and closer to human habitation, the degree of human interference, in the name of human interests, gets gradually more intense. This begins with the most remote ranches, into more settled farms and subdivisions... Until, the downtown area of my little town is essentially not all that different from the heart of your big city. Both are "managed" for humans to the highest degree possible.

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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 9:11PM #337
mytmouse57
Posts: 9,782

May 1, 2012 -- 7:21PM, arielg wrote:


As I mentioned in an earlier post (to which nobody responded), Chinese Taoist philosopher Lao Tzu long ago observed that it is unnatural for humans to think they can control what happens in the natural world and that it is wrong to try.


Solfeggio:


That was a beautiful quote that I did not even respond to because  it is so foreign to the hunter's mentality which prevails in these pages that it would be a waste of time to attempt to include it in the discussion.  It would just go over their heads  and  simply be ignored, like it was.


 


 






You have no idea how ignorant that statement is.


I'm a hunter, and I'm all for wilderness areas, National Forests, and other areas that are essentially left untouched by human structures, dwellings or roads. So, speak for yourself.


The very concept of National Parks, wilderness areas and National Forests was concived largely by people who were hunter/conservationists?


Every hear of Aldo Leopold? Here's a tip, watch the biographical film on him "The Green Fire," and get back to me.


 

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5 years ago  ::  May 01, 2012 - 10:09PM #338
arielg
Posts: 9,116

May 1, 2012 -- 9:11PM, mytmouse57 wrote:


May 1, 2012 -- 7:21PM, arielg wrote:


As I mentioned in an earlier post (to which nobody responded), Chinese Taoist philosopher Lao Tzu long ago observed that it is unnatural for humans to think they can control what happens in the natural world and that it is wrong to try.


Solfeggio:


That was a beautiful quote that I did not even respond to because  it is so foreign to the hunter's mentality which prevails in these pages that it would be a waste of time to attempt to include it in the discussion.  It would just go over their heads  and  simply be ignored, like it was.


 





You have no idea how ignorant that statement is.


I'm a hunter, and I'm all for wilderness areas, National Forests, and other areas that are essentially left untouched by human structures, dwellings or roads. So, speak for yourself.


The very concept of National Parks, wilderness areas and National Forests was concived largely by people who were hunter/conservationists?


Every hear of Aldo Leopold? Here's a tip, watch the biographical film on him "The Green Fire," and get back to me.


 




This is the quote Solfeggio was referring to.


It is the complete opposite of your position and philosophy.


 


 Finally, there is a quote by the founder of Taoism, Lao Tzu:


The world is ruled by letting


things take their course


It cannot be ruled by interferring




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5 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:24AM #339
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

mytmouse -


That quote really, truly does sum up how some of us - including arielg, Rabello, and of course myself, but maybe some others who don't post - feel about the natural world.


Honestly, I have such an aversion to messing with nature that I cannot even bring myself to cut a branch from a tree or pull up a plant by the roots.  As a result, we have a rather messy (by gardeners' standards, I guess) property, filled with plants that most people would call weeds but which I think have the same right to grow where they wish as garden flowers.


And, after watching them grow for years, I have noticed that they sort themselves out very nicely and never crowd themselves, but seem to know exactly how to manage their spaces.


Yesterday, when I was bringing in the morning paper from the driveway, I saw that a tiny baby snail had crawled onto the wrapper.  So, I carefully slid him onto a leaf.  This could be considered interfering with nature, but taking the snail into the house would have been worse.


I cannot bring myself to bother a spider making a web, even if it is in the corner of the bedroom ceiling.  I just leave them alone until they move on and am sure they're finished with the web before I clean it up.


What I will do that is interfering with nature is that I will take an earthworm that has got stranded on a walkway and put it back into the grass.  And if a mouse ventures into our house (a big mistake, with eleven cats in residence), I will carefully capture it and take it outside.  I would never put out a trap.


I just think animals should be left alone to live their lives.


 


 

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5 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:26AM #340
solfeggio
Posts: 10,753

arielg -


Thank you for your post and for quoting the beautiful Lao Tzu words once again.  I've read the works of Lao Tzu before, and I have found his insights to be profound.


The concept is so simple that I should have thought everybody would have 'got' it immediately.


 


 

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