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Switch to Forum Live View Religious extremists at it again.....
2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:39PM #21
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,656

Girl Christian. What if the teacher were a different set of religions, and their creation story is different then yours. How would you like that teacher to respond to your child, asking about creationism? Would you want that teacher to indoctrinate your child to their religion? Something very foreign to you, and nothing to do with Jesus.



You should answer yes, because that is what you want teachers to do. You want to allow them to indoctrinate children into Christianity.


Different religions have different creation stories. If you only allow the Christian one the the government is favouring one religion over another. Something the constitution is supposed to protect us from.



It is the same thing. I wish you (generic) would think about things like that.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:39PM #22
mecdukebec
Posts: 14,046

I have had some weird conversations, with Wingos and fundagelicals (and those who are both in one person), and--when they insist that creationism/"intelligent design" should be taught, alongside evolution, I then ask "Well, why not also teach the Hindu creation story and the Egyptian one, as well as the Roman and Greek stories (the latter two, in particular, to catch the Wingo-dodge that "Those Hindoos and them Pharooohs ain't Christian and ain't Western, either.")?" and the Wingo-gelicals, to a person, observe, "Those stories are myths!  The story in Genesis is real!"


Tells a lot, right there.

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"Wesley told the early Methodists to gain all they could and save all they could so that they could give all they could. It means that I consider my money to belong to God and I see myself as one of the hungry people who needs to get fed with God’s money. If I really have put all my trust in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord, then nothing I have is really my own anymore."
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:40PM #23
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,723

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:28PM, mainecaptain wrote:


There was once a fool experiment done in some school that when they taught the alphabet, they did not teach it in the order we are used to.


When one of those taught this system entered the work force, she was asked to file some things. She had no idea how to do so, because she was not properly taught alphabetical order.


If you do not teach evolution, and other factual sciences, you are stopping children and by extension the from moving forward and being competitive.


You are eliminating any job in the sciences, such as doctors, nurses, and yes scientist. Without learning real science instead of this ridiculous religious nonsense. You are stopping the continued fight against diseases. There is more to it. But that is the first place anyone (the common man/women) would notice the deficit.




I'm certainly not advocating that we not teach science, but in order to teach science in a manner that has ANY hope of counteracting religious dogma and allowing a kid to, as Rabello put it, reconcile scientific knowlege with what they're taught at home and by their church then you have to address what they're being taught.


If, in response to a kid's question, the teacher then starts teaching about creationism or enforcing religious dogma then deal with that teacher, but many of them won't do that and might actually be able to help the child understand a theory that they're being taught is false at home and thereby enable them to put science over dogma.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:42PM #24
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,723

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:39PM, mainecaptain wrote:


Girl Christian. What if the teacher were a different set of religions, and their creation story is different then yours. How would you like that teacher to respond to your child, asking about creationism? Would you want that teacher to indoctrinate your child to their religion? Something very foreign to you, and nothing to do with Jesus.



You should answer yes, because that is what you want teachers to do. You want to allow them to indoctrinate children into Christianity.


Different religions have different creation stories. If you only allow the Christian one the the government is favouring one religion over another. Something the constitution is supposed to protect us from.



It is the same thing. I wish you (generic) would think about things like that.





If you think i'm actually advocating the teaching of creationism then you're not reading my posts. The ONLY thing I'm advocating is allowing the discussion that needs to happen in order to COUNTERACT THE TEACHING OF RELIGIOUS DOGMA AT HOME THAT A STUDENT GETS and you can't do that if you won't even address what they're being taught at home.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:46PM #25
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:36PM, Girlchristian wrote:

I'm doing no such thing.


That is all you are doing; making excuses to force religious dogma on vulnerable school children and having the State do it for you.


In many schools, if a kid asks a question about creationism and evolution the teacher has to respond with "we can't discuss that" which essentially means you're sending the kid out of class with no way to reconcile science with what they've been taught their whole life.


That's not true, and you know it. Teachers can answer questions, and the way I mentioned is the best way to go. I know several grade school teachers that do just what I said; tell the kids that science is taught in the classroom and religious questions belong at home. Public school teachers are not there to "reconcile" science and religion. They are there to teach the facts. Evolution is a fact.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:50PM #26
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:40PM, Girlchristian wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating that we not teach science, but in order to teach science in a manner that has ANY hope of counteracting religious dogma and allowing a kid to, as Rabello put it, reconcile scientific knowlege with what they're taught at home and by their church then you have to address what they're being taught.


That's not what you are doing. You're making excuses to bring religious dogma into the classroom. There is no "reconciliation" that needs to be dealt with. Just teach the truth, the science. Again, tell the student that science, the facts, will be taught in the classroom. Then present the facts and all that supports those facts.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:51PM #27
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,723

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:36PM, Girlchristian wrote:

I'm doing no such thing.


That is all you are doing; making excuses to force religious dogma on vulnerable school children and having the State do it for you.


In many schools, if a kid asks a question about creationism and evolution the teacher has to respond with "we can't discuss that" which essentially means you're sending the kid out of class with no way to reconcile science with what they've been taught their whole life.


That's not true, and you know it. Teachers can answer questions, and the way I mentioned is the best way to go. I know several grade school teachers that do just what I said; tell the kids that science is taught in the classroom and religious questions belong at home. Public school teachers are not there to "reconcile" science and religion. They are there to teach the facts. Evolution is a fact.




And kids are being taught that Creationism is a fact and we all know that a quick class on  evolution that handles this in "evolution is fact, period" is NOT going to be strong enough to counteract years of being taught that evolution is made up and creationism is fact. It needs to be handled in a manner that allows the student to process the information, discuss it, ask questions, and then reconcile it in order to get through to them over years of religious teaching. If public schools aren't willing to answer questions that help kids reconcile scientific knowledge with religious dogma then we'll just continue to have a bunch of kids growing up thinking evolution is made up and creationism is fact. If you want to counteract that then you let discussion happen.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:54PM #28
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,723

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:50PM, mountain_man wrote:


Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:40PM, Girlchristian wrote:

I'm certainly not advocating that we not teach science, but in order to teach science in a manner that has ANY hope of counteracting religious dogma and allowing a kid to, as Rabello put it, reconcile scientific knowlege with what they're taught at home and by their church then you have to address what they're being taught.


That's not what you are doing. You're making excuses to bring religious dogma into the classroom. There is no "reconciliation" that needs to be dealt with. Just teach the truth, the science. Again, tell the student that science, the facts, will be taught in the classroom. Then present the facts and all that supports those facts.




Do NOT tell me what I'm doing.

Doing it your way will go like this...little Johnny will go home and say "Mom, dad, here's what we were taught today on evolution" and mom and dad will say "Johnny, scientists and teachers make things up, we were created by God just as it says in the bible and that's fact" and because little Johnny doesn't get to ask questions from either his teacher or his parents because they're both saying "my way is fact" with no discussion then guess who he's going to believe? It won't be the teacher...

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:54PM #29
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,656

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:39PM, mecdukebec wrote:


I have had some weird conversations, with Wingos and fundagelicals (and those who are both in one person), and--when they insist that creationism/"intelligent design" should be taught, alongside evolution, I then ask "Well, why not also teach the Hindu creation story and the Egyptian one, as well as the Roman and Greek stories (the latter two, in particular, to catch the Wingo-dodge that "Those Hindoos and them Pharooohs ain't Christian and ain't Western, either.")?" and the Wingo-gelicals, to a person, observe, "Those stories are myths!  The story in Genesis is real!"


Tells a lot, right there.




Genesis is not western either. It is part of a middle eastern religion. And obvious to a Christian no other story is anything by myth, but to those who follow the Ancient Egyptian gods, The Abrahamic story is nothing but myth.


If we are  going to allow one persons, or one sects creation story into schools we have to have to allow for all.


It is Christians oppressing other faiths again.


All creation stories have the same weight or lack their of.  Should I teach my creation story to my students? Why not? I Believe it. I believe just as fervently as those who want to teach from the Christian bible.

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 04, 2012 - 3:58PM #30
mountain_man
Posts: 38,042

Apr 4, 2012 -- 3:51PM, Girlchristian wrote:

And kids are being taught that Creationism is a fact and we all know that a quick class on  evolution that handles this in "evolution is fact, period" is NOT going to be strong enough to counteract years of being taught that evolution is made up and creationism is fact.


That is a false assumption on your part. You're just making excuses to impose creationism.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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