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Switch to Forum Live View Religious extremists at it again.....
2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:45PM #121
Ken
Posts: 33,859

Apr 5, 2012 -- 2:09PM, lucaspa wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 1:56PM, Ken wrote:

 Not if the teacher doesn't say that if creationism is wrong, God does not exist. If students wish to draw that conclusion for themselves from what their religious instructors have told them, that's none of the teacher's concern. The religious instructors have only themselves to blame.


By keeping silence about the logical flaw "if creationism is wrong, God does not exist", the teacher is tilting the conclusion and injecting a philosophy inot the classroom.



I'm not terribly concerned about that. After all, the students' nitwit pastors didn't tell that "if creationism is wrong, God does not exist," they'd have no reason to draw that conclusion. After all, it's just ordinary prudence to ensure that one's religious doctrines don't contradict established mainstream science.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:49PM #122
Ken
Posts: 33,859

In my day we didn't have discussions in science classes. There were hard facts to be mastered and our job was to master them. We left discussions for more touchy-feely subjects like English lit.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:52PM #123
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:49PM, Ken wrote:


In my day we didn't have discussions in science classes. There were hard facts to be mastered and our job was to master them. We left discussions for more touchy-feely subjects like English lit.




My expereince as well. I find the concept unheard of. And bizarre



That is like debating math

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 5:54PM #124
IreneAdler
Posts: 2,849

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:49PM, Ken wrote:


In my day we didn't have discussions in science classes. There were hard facts to be mastered and our job was to master them. We left discussions for more touchy-feely subjects like English lit.





Not even discussion regarding an experiment conducted in class?


I recall having to discuss conclusions and what they meant.  And, lots of times I got things wrong or concluded something different from what teacher had intended.  LOL!  Makes me the scientist I am today (Yikes!).


 


Irene.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 6:00PM #125
mainecaptain
Posts: 21,783

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:54PM, IreneAdler wrote:


Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:49PM, Ken wrote:


In my day we didn't have discussions in science classes. There were hard facts to be mastered and our job was to master them. We left discussions for more touchy-feely subjects like English lit.





Not even discussion regarding an experiment conducted in class?


I recall having to discuss conclusions and what they meant.  And, lots of times I got things wrong or concluded something different from what teacher had intended.  LOL!  Makes me the scientist I am today (Yikes!).


 


Irene.




I under stand that Irene, I agree. I don't think it is that kind of discussion we are speaking. At least not myself. :)

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. Aristotle
Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow. Plato..
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives" Jackie Robinson
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 9:15PM #126
Larosser
Posts: 413

Apr 5, 2012 -- 5:41PM, IreneAdler wrote:


Ya know, I too question this ‘protection’ of teachers whose students wish to discuss points of view counter to theory of Evolution. Foothold indeed!


Any theory “worth its salt” can stand up to critical examination. Sound theory is based on solid, substantiated, verifiable, repeatable data in as controlled an environment as possible to reduce confounding variables. The true skeptic provides rigorous critical assessment of that theory; what survives is of robust nature. Skepticism is of benefit to science- when that skepticism is based on reason.


As to allowing students to use Creationism or ID to refute Theory of Evolution, I would posit that students be allowed to bring this into discussion. Not as a segue into a discussion of religion in the classroom; rather as a lesson on how to refute or counter properly.  The science student must learn that the provenance of one’s evidence must be ascertained; the source of facts presented must be vetted by qualified scientists before it can be considered a proper challenge to any theory (and the work by said scientists must be peer reviewed as well). Student will quickly discover that “my Bible tells me so” or “I’ve been told” are woefully inadequate counters in any scientific discussion. Cite a paper, carry out a well-controlled experiment. Science is about verified facts –not beliefs or customs or old wives’ tales. Just cuz something is written down –or published- doesn’t make it a fact nor does it make it correct. Biblically-derived is not an automatic pass to validity. Theories or counterpoints derived from questionable data are worthless. It would be made clear very quickly that Biblically-derived arguments lack solid data, peer reviewed substantiation and are worthless. In the words of DUO: “do better!”.  Hopefully the whole issue of creationism as an adequate counter-theory to Evolution can be laid to rest in minutes.  


And, this isn’t to say that theories must never change. Who’s to say that, tomorrow, some field scientist will happen upon a discovery that might alter our understanding of Evolution (note: I did not say ‘refute’ Evolution)? But, this discovery would be well-studied and properly vetted by a whole lot of qualified people before that even begins to happen (ahem, Piltdown Man, anyone?). Science ain’t done yet. We are always learning.


In short, it would be a lesson for the student in prudent judgment - know your sources. Learn to employ sound evidence to properly bolster one’s position. But I will concede that it is a great deal easier on the teacher to simply restrict any mention of belief-based theories of origin. Some folks just will not accept the premise that good science is never based on beliefs- no matter how divine the origin. This can make such discussion very difficult-not trying to create an undue burden on teachers. And, while this might open up the classroom to all kinds of notions (dowsing anyone?), I would hope it would impart to students the importance of reasoning.


 


Just my 2 cents.


 


Irene.





+100

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2012 - 11:27PM #127
loveontheair
Posts: 4,057

Hello,



I think this needs to be moved...perhaps the Atheist forum. It doesn't belong here. My $.02



love

Good works will never produce faith, but faith will always produce good works. loveontheair
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 12:05AM #128
mountain_man
Posts: 39,388

Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:27PM, loveontheair wrote:

I think this needs to be moved...perhaps the Atheist forum. It doesn't belong here. My $.02


This is a hot topic, something currently in the news, even with a link. This is exactly where this discussion belongs. Or do you really believe that people should not discuss what you do not want to hear?


love


Where?

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:46AM #129
Sigmund
Posts: 1,305

Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:27PM, loveontheair wrote:


Hello,



I think this needs to be moved...perhaps the Atheist forum. It doesn't belong here. My $.02



love




Why in the world would you think it needs to be moved to the Atheism forum?

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 11:25AM #130
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 5, 2012 -- 11:27PM, loveontheair wrote:

Hello,



I think this needs to be moved...perhaps the Atheist forum. It doesn't belong here. My $.02



love


Why? Is this hot topic a little too hot for you to handle? 


(And don't worry -- this thread will probably end up being sent to the Discuss Atheism or the Science and Religion boards once it sizzles out and no one has posted to it for a week or so. As you know, all Hot Topics threads are eventually sent to other boards when they cease to be hot topics.) 

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