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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 10:41AM #241
teilhard
Posts: 49,872

huh ... Isn't this interesting ... ???


***The "Leftist" Critics have the same Complaints about The "Right" Wing Guys ... !!! ("The Iraq War," and all that, etc. ... !!!)


The FACT is of course that MARKET Forces of Supply and Demand control the World Energy Supplies ...


You will have a much clearer Understanding of current Climate Science if you STOP using your patently Ideological Filter ...


May 16, 2012 -- 10:04AM, Bodean wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 11:33PM, teilhard wrote:


(What do those Clouds, however, have to do with "Leftist" Conspiracies and "One-World-Guv'Mint" ... ???)





It's really quite simple TH.  The Leftist WANT to control the worlds energy supply, because doing so gives one control over the world itself [and implement their policy of Social Justice across the globe].  HOWEVER, they just can't come out and say this, so they have to come up with some plausible explanation to justify their real motive.


Enter in Global Warming.


Only problem was, the DATA were not supplying a sufficient story.  The answer, corrupt science, and make the science say what you want it too. 


First thing on the agenda ... cherry pick CO2 data to imply that pre-industrial CO2 levels were much lower than today.  Peer reviewed studies have come out refuted this, but the Leftist who own the IPCC have ignored them.


Second on the list, get rid of the MWP.  Thus, papers came out that mysteriously deleted the MWP.  Leftist went about claiming it was just a regional event, but scientific studies, some 130+ of them dispute that.  These studies are conveniently left out of the Leftist Controlled IPCC reports.  The 1st and 2nd reports had the MWP.  TAR showed no MWP at all.  AR4 revised a bit, showing the MWP, but they pulled "Mikes' little Nature Trick", and put the Thermometer Data on the end of the Spaghetti Graph, to give the illusion that the Hocky Stick still existed.  This was facilitated also by the YAMAL studies already mentioned.  It's yet to be seen what happens in this next report.  But .. since the IPCC report is written By Leftist, you can bet that the progression of possible(1st and 2nd reports), likely (TAR), highly likely (AR4), to "almost certain", regarding CO2 being the cause will appear in the report.


Since real data wasn't doing the trick, the emphasis switched from empiric data to computer models.  Really, the computer models are the only eveidence that suggests that CO2 is the driver, and this is because they were customized to give that exact result.  It is an indisputable SCIENTIFIC FACT that CO2 of itself can only increase temp by 1C with a doubling, and less so with each subsequent doubling.  Thus, in order to make the story, one has to wade out into the weeds of the "amplifiers, feedbacks, etc, where science is much more uncertain.  By establishing the assumptions regarding Solar and Cloud forcings on Global Climate, the Leftist achieve the goal of producing a family of GCMs that comply with their goal, one that says CO2 is the culprit.   Only problem is, the Models are being proven wrong by Nature itself.  Global Temps, Sea Surface Temps, even Ocean Heat Content are all decreasing. .... Yet CO2 continues to increase. ... OOOPS.


As things continue to blow up in their face, they struggle to find new slants to propagandize their story to the public.  Since their "hocky stick" studies have been outed to the frauds that they are, and the public interests in the subject is waning .. the Warmists have switched to the emotional subject of "weather".  Heat Waves, Floods, Tornadoes, Hurricanes .. any emotional grabbing story in the news is seized upon to "imply" Global Climate Change.  Yet .. the scientific studies always follow, by NOAA no less, that dispute such claims.  They recently had a big meeting, where the goal of the meeting was "improving the communication of the story to the public".  They are deeply concerned that the public is not buying their story.  Passion for CAGW is dying, and without that Passion, it will be impossible to pass the necessary legislation to move the control of Fossil Fuel usage to a Centralized Government Entity.  The Obama Admin. figured out a way to just step around it all, and had the EPA bipass congress in implementing new CO2 regulations under the Endangered Species Act.  Other leftist Governments, like the ones in Europe do the same thing, with the new "carbon tax" for airlines.


This is no conspiracy .. This really is a means to create a justification to push forward legislation on issues involving Fossil Fuels.  And .. it worked for awhile, but it is losing steam fast with the public.


The only reason "certain" groups of the population refuse to see it is because they themselves are leftists, invested in Social Justice.  They hate the oil companies because they profit off of a substance that has become necessary for our standard of life.  They hate the rich, specifically the Koch Brothers, who became rich off of oil.  They will support ANYTHING that opposes who they hate.  An Enemy of my Enemy is indeed a friend of mine.





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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:31AM #242
Bodean
Posts: 9,204

May 16, 2012 -- 10:41AM, teilhard wrote:


huh ... Interesting ...


***The "Leftist" Critics have the same Complainsr about The "Right" Wing Guys ... !!!


The FACT is of course that MARKET Forces of Supply and Demand control the World Energy Supplies ...





What claims to they make, ... other than Scientists who do not agree with their story are "deniers"?? .. .or unsubstantiated claims like funding by the oil companies?


When it comes to climate, ya just have to look at the facts before you.


MWP .... The "skeptics" just look at what exists in the literature.  The "alarmists" manipulated data in order to eliminate the MWP.  NOW ..to be fair, this may not have been at the behest of the LEFT, but on the part of the Scientist involved, who were just furthering Grant opportunities, but to be sure, they ALL support Legislation on CAGW, which is a Left Position.   They are also ALL insiders at the IPCC ... a Government Body that was set up to influence Government Decision .. including the US.


Adjustments.  The "skeptics" haven't made any.  The "alarmists" have made many ... and suprise suprise, ... they ALL increase the warming trend.  In EVERY SINGLE CASE ... adjustments made by the Alarmist bring the Data more in line with their models and Theory ... as opposed to making their models come in line with the Data.


Subject Matter.  The General Scientific Community, goes on about its business evaluating all kinds of possibilities on Climate, including Cloud Studies, Solar Studies, Ocean Studies, Atmospheric Studies, etc etc etc, even paleoclimate studies.  The "alarmist", on the otherhand, are fixated on proving that CO2 is the culprit.  They "deny" any alternative hypotheses, without providing proof, but referencing their consensus, and the IPCC reports, for which they write!  In fact, they've adopted the "religious mantra" ... "prove our hypothesis is not correct"!  You know as well as I, Science is about proving your hypothesis true, ... not proving someone else's hypothesis is false.  Makes ya wonder who the "true deniers" are.


Ethics.  The "skeptics" put ALL of their data, methods, and any other materials needed to replicate work in the public domain. There is a pure exchange of information and ideas with the intent of seeking the truth.  If another person makes any request, then it is granted.  The "Alarmist", otoh, have hidden data, hidden methods, refused FOI request, .. and have to be literally dragged kicking and screaming into the courts by the General Scientific Community, in order to achieve any level of transparcency.  Just look in the Climategate stuff ... "change the peer review process to prevent papers from being considered??" ... "Mike's Nature Trick" ... "pressuring journals not to publish studies" ... "getting editors fired, or forcing them to quit" ... They have this little "club" .. I call the Cabal.... and the rest of the Scientific Community is not welcome.


FRAUD.  I can't recall a single time that a "skeptic" has engaged in illegal behavior to try and discredit the Alarmists.  Gleick, on the otherhand, forged a document and deciminated it to the media, intentionally trying to discredit the Heartland Institute ... an organization that even invited Gleick to SPEAK at their forum.


 


TH ... I just don't see how you can ignore all of this Documented stuff.  I'd totally understand if it was just unsubstantiated ranting on the part of a bunch of oil company shills, but that is simply not the case.  All this stuff is real, documented, .... and downright "alarming".


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 2:51PM #243
teilhard
Posts: 49,872

***Well ... Again ...


I have been following the published SCIENTIFIC Reports re: Global Climate (Change) in The Scientific Literature for >30+ Years -- LONG before the Discussions OF the Science Findings became either "trendy" OR Ideologically shrill ...


I'M not the one with the Problem dealing with the SCIENCE in Question ... (So, what you're REALLY wondering is WHY People like ME are unconvinced by People like YOU ... hint, hint: "Leftist" Conspiracies and World Domination ...)


May 16, 2012 -- 11:31AM, Bodean wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 10:41AM, teilhard wrote:


huh ... Interesting ...


***The "Leftist" Critics have the same Complaints about The "Right" Wing Guys ... !!!


The FACT is of course that MARKET Forces of Supply and Demand control the World Energy Supplies ...





What claims to they make, ... other than Scientists who do not agree with their story are "deniers"?? .. .or unsubstantiated claims like funding by the oil companies?


When it comes to climate, ya just have to look at the facts before you.


MWP .... The "skeptics" just look at what exists in the literature.  The "alarmists" manipulated data in order to eliminate the MWP.  NOW ..to be fair, this may not have been at the behest of the LEFT, but on the part of the Scientist involved, who were just furthering Grant opportunities, but to be sure, they ALL support Legislation on CAGW, which is a Left Position.   They are also ALL insiders at the IPCC ... a Government Body that was set up to influence Government Decision .. including the US.


Adjustments.  The "skeptics" haven't made any.  The "alarmists" have made many ... and suprise suprise, ... they ALL increase the warming trend.  In EVERY SINGLE CASE ... adjustments made by the Alarmist bring the Data more in line with their models and Theory ... as opposed to making their models come in line with the Data.


Subject Matter.  The General Scientific Community, goes on about its business evaluating all kinds of possibilities on Climate, including Cloud Studies, Solar Studies, Ocean Studies, Atmospheric Studies, etc etc etc, even paleoclimate studies.  The "alarmist", on the otherhand, are fixated on proving that CO2 is the culprit.  They "deny" any alternative hypotheses, without providing proof, but referencing their consensus, and the IPCC reports, for which they write!  In fact, they've adopted the "religious mantra" ... "prove our hypothesis is not correct"!  You know as well as I, Science is about proving your hypothesis true, ... not proving someone else's hypothesis is false.  Makes ya wonder who the "true deniers" are.


Ethics.  The "skeptics" put ALL of their data, methods, and any other materials needed to replicate work in the public domain. There is a pure exchange of information and ideas with the intent of seeking the truth.  If another person makes any request, then it is granted.  The "Alarmist", otoh, have hidden data, hidden methods, refused FOI request, .. and have to be literally dragged kicking and screaming into the courts by the General Scientific Community, in order to achieve any level of transparcency.  Just look in the Climategate stuff ... "change the peer review process to prevent papers from being considered??" ... "Mike's Nature Trick" ... "pressuring journals not to publish studies" ... "getting editors fired, or forcing them to quit" ... They have this little "club" .. I call the Cabal.... and the rest of the Scientific Community is not welcome.


FRAUD.  I can't recall a single time that a "skeptic" has engaged in illegal behavior to try and discredit the Alarmists.  Gleick, on the otherhand, forged a document and deciminated it to the media, intentionally trying to discredit the Heartland Institute ... an organization that even invited Gleick to SPEAK at their forum.


 


TH ...


***I just don't see how you can ignore all of this Documented stuff


I'd totally understand if it was just unsubstantiated ranting on the part of a bunch of oil company shills, but that is simply not the case.  All this stuff is real, documented, .... and downright "alarming".


 





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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 5:23PM #244
Bodean
Posts: 9,204

May 16, 2012 -- 2:51PM, teilhard wrote:


... (So, what you're REALLY wondering is WHY People like ME are unconvinced by People like YOU ... hint, hint: "Leftist" Conspiracies and World Domination ...)





LOL ....


.... that pretty much sums it up TH.


It's just like reading an AP Story on Fox News.  Because the AP Story is on Fox News .. it's crap!


Of course, link to the same AP Story on Salon ... well, now it is worth reading.  LOL


Well TH .... hope you keep "following" the science on GCC ... and while you are at it, you might want to try reading some it.


One last parting Read ... and I won't link this, I'll just post it.  It's not me who thinks the Leftist want "World Domination" .... they say it themselves.


They Wish For One World Governance


“Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level.”——-Agenda 21


“The need for a global structure of control in the form of a world environment court is now more urgent than ever before.”—-Judi Dench, famous UK actress


“The emerging ‘environmentalization’ of our civilization and the need for vigorous action in the interest of the entire global community will inevitably have multiple political consequences. Perhaps the most important of them will be a gradual change in the status of the United Nations. Inevitably, it must assume some aspects of a world government.”——Mikhail Gorbachev, communist and former leader of U.S.S.R.


A New World Order is required to deal with the Climate Change crisis.”—-Gordon Brown, former British prime minister


“Nations are in effect ceding portions of their sovereignty to the international community and beginning to create a new system of international environmental governance.”—-Lester Brown,founder of the Worldwatch Institute, and founder and president of the Earth Policy Institute


“The concept of national sovereignty has been immutable, indeed a sacred principle of international relations. It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation.”—–UN’s Commission on Global Governance


“Government in the future will be based upon . . . a supreme office of the biosphere. The office will comprise specially trained philosopher/ecologists. These guardians will either rule themselves or advise an authoritarian government of policies based on their ecological training and philosophical sensitivities. These guardians will be specially trained for the task.”—–David Shearman, an IPCC Assessor for 3rd and 4th climate change reports


“Adopting a central organizing principle means embarking on an all-out effort to use every policy and program, every law and institution, to halt the destruction of the environment.”—-Al Gore, former U.S. vice president


“A deal must include an equitable global governance structure. All countries must have a voice in how resources are deployed and managed.”—–Ban Ki-Moon, UN Secretary General


“In my view, after fifty years of service in the United National system, I perceive the utmost urgency and absolute necessity for proper Earth government. There is no shadow of a doubt that the present political and economic systems are no longer appropriate and will lead to the end of life evolution on this planet. We must therefore absolutely and urgently look for new ways.”—–Robert Muller, former UN Assistant Secretary General


“For the first time, humanity is instituting a genuine instrument [Kyoto Protocol] of global governance,”…”By acting together, by building this unprecedented instrument, the first component of an authentic global governance, we are working for dialogue and peace.”—-Jacques Chirac, former French President


“Either the Earth System would undergo major phase transitions as a result of unchecked human pressure on nature’s capacities and resources or a “Great Transformation” towards global sustainability would be initiated in due course. Neither transitions nor transformations will be manageable without novel forms of global governance and markets…”—–Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, architect of the new Germanic master plan, the ‘Great Transformation’


“We are close to a time when all of humankind will envision a global agenda that encompasses a kind of Global Marshall Plan to address the causes of poverty and suffering and environmental destruction all over the earth.”—–Al Gore, former U.S. vice president


“I pledge allegiance to the Earth and all its sacred parts. Its water, land and living things and all its human hearts.” ——Global Education Associates, an environmental education group—–Their daily Earth pledge


“An ecocatastrophe is taking place on earth…..discipline; prohibition, enforcement and oppression are the only solution.” “As for those “most responsible for the present economic growth and competition”, Linkola explains that they will be sent to the mountains for “re-education” in eco-gulags: “the sole glimmer of hope,” he declares, “lies in a centralised government and the tireless control of citizens.”—Pentti Linkola, a Finnish ecological philosopher


“Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely. Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected representatives to make competent decisions at the right time.“— Club of Rome, The First Global Revolution


 


Chow.

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2 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 5:47PM #245
teilhard
Posts: 49,872

 ... L ... O ... L ... !!!


Thus (below) you RICHLY illustrate the very Point I made ... !!!


Thank you ...


"Chiao" indeed ... (I won't get "Chow" tonight until after my GrandSon's BaseBall Game ... I'm thinking of a quick take-out Pizza and a green Salad ...)


(But, yes ... Unfortunately SOMETIMES "The Deliverer/Host of The Medium" IS "The (unwitting) Message" ... Think about it ... Do you REALLY imagine that you'll learn, e.g., "The Truth about 'Israel'" from, say, "The Government of Iran" ... ???  Really ... ???)


May 16, 2012 -- 5:23PM, Bodean wrote:


May 16, 2012 -- 2:51PM, teilhard wrote:


... (So, what you're REALLY wondering is WHY People like ME are unconvinced by People like YOU ... hint, hint: "Leftist" Conspiracies and World Domination ...)





LOL ....


.... that pretty much sums it up TH.


It's just like reading an AP Story on Fox News.  Because the AP Story is on Fox News .. it's crap!


Of course, link to the same AP Story on Salon ... well, now it is worth reading.  LOL


Well TH .... hope you keep "following" the science on GCC ... and while you are at it, you might want to try reading some it.


One last parting Read ... and I won't link this, I'll just post it.  It's not me who thinks the Leftist want "World Domination" .... they say it themselves.


They Wish For One World Governance


“Effective execution of Agenda 21 will require a profound reorientation of all human society, unlike anything the world has ever experienced a major shift in the priorities of both governments and individuals and an unprecedented redeployment of human and financial resources. This shift will demand that a concern for the environmental consequences of every human action be integrated into individual and collective decision-making at every level.”——-Agenda 21


“The need for a global structure of control in the form of a world environment court is now more urgent than ever before.”—-Judi Dench, famous UK actress


“The emerging ‘environmentalization’ of our civilization and the need for vigorous action in the interest of the entire global community will inevitably have multiple political consequences. Perhaps the most important of them will be a gradual change in the status of the United Nations. Inevitably, it must assume some aspects of a world government.”——Mikhail Gorbachev, communist and former leader of U.S.S.R.


A New World Order is required to deal with the Climate Change crisis.”—-Gordon Brown, former British prime minister


“Nations are in effect ceding portions of their sovereignty to the international community and beginning to create a new system of international environmental governance.”—-Lester Brown,founder of the Worldwatch Institute, and founder and president of the Earth Policy Institute


“The concept of national sovereignty has been immutable, indeed a sacred principle of international relations. It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation.”—–UN’s Commission on Global Governance


“Government in the future will be based upon . . . a supreme office of the biosphere. The office will comprise specially trained philosopher/ecologists. These guardians will either rule themselves or advise an authoritarian government of policies based on their ecological training and philosophical sensitivities. These guardians will be specially trained for the task.”—–David Shearman, an IPCC Assessor for 3rd and 4th climate change reports


“Adopting a central organizing principle means embarking on an all-out effort to use every policy and program, every law and institution, to halt the destruction of the environment.”—-Al Gore, former U.S. vice president


“A deal must include an equitable global governance structure. All countries must have a voice in how resources are deployed and managed.”—–Ban Ki-Moon, UN Secretary General


“In my view, after fifty years of service in the United National system, I perceive the utmost urgency and absolute necessity for proper Earth government. There is no shadow of a doubt that the present political and economic systems are no longer appropriate and will lead to the end of life evolution on this planet. We must therefore absolutely and urgently look for new ways.”—–Robert Muller, former UN Assistant Secretary General


“For the first time, humanity is instituting a genuine instrument [Kyoto Protocol] of global governance,”…”By acting together, by building this unprecedented instrument, the first component of an authentic global governance, we are working for dialogue and peace.”—-Jacques Chirac, former French President


“Either the Earth System would undergo major phase transitions as a result of unchecked human pressure on nature’s capacities and resources or a “Great Transformation” towards global sustainability would be initiated in due course. Neither transitions nor transformations will be manageable without novel forms of global governance and markets…”—–Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, architect of the new Germanic master plan, the ‘Great Transformation’


“We are close to a time when all of humankind will envision a global agenda that encompasses a kind of Global Marshall Plan to address the causes of poverty and suffering and environmental destruction all over the earth.”—–Al Gore, former U.S. vice president


“I pledge allegiance to the Earth and all its sacred parts. Its water, land and living things and all its human hearts.” ——Global Education Associates, an environmental education group—–Their daily Earth pledge


“An ecocatastrophe is taking place on earth…..discipline; prohibition, enforcement and oppression are the only solution.” “As for those “most responsible for the present economic growth and competition”, Linkola explains that they will be sent to the mountains for “re-education” in eco-gulags: “the sole glimmer of hope,” he declares, “lies in a centralised government and the tireless control of citizens.”—Pentti Linkola, a Finnish ecological philosopher


“Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely. Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected representatives to make competent decisions at the right time.“— Club of Rome, The First Global Revolution


 


Chow.





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2 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:28PM #246
teilhard
Posts: 49,872

In the latest Issue of "Science" (May 11, 2012), pages 682-683, a very nice brief Summary Article, "The Ice Age Carbon Puzzle," by Edward Book (College of Earth, Ocean, and Atmospheric Sciences, Oregon State University) ...

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