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Switch to Forum Live View ADHD Overdiagnosed in Younger Kids
2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 6:25AM #41
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,128

Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:18AM, Ebon wrote:


Medicine (especially neurology and psychiatry) is one of those areas where everyone considers themselves an expert. And not simply an expert but the greatest of all experts. Law and education suffer from the same problem, the unjustified assumption that the uneducated opinion one just pulled out of one's behind is superior to the learned opinions of those who have devoted their lives to studying the area. I suspect this is an inherent flaw of democracies: The assumption that because your voice counts (which it does) that it should be given equal weight (which it should not). Yes, the experts in any area are sometimes wrong but they are a great deal more likely to be right than the random man in the street. This doesn't happen to other trained professionals. People don't walk up to engineers and say "you've put that bridge up wrong". Passersby do not accost farmers and tell them that they've put the wrong crop in a field. Only in medicine, education and law do people consider their uninformed and uneducated opinions are clearly correct and all who don't agree are clearly wrong.


One of the things I loathe about American society (and there are many things I like and admire about American society) is this streak of anti-intellectualism and instant expertise. The assumption that one opinion is just as good as another's facts; the discounting of actual evidence and data in favour of the gut feeling, the appeal to the knuckledragging prejudices of the common volk and the assumption that popularity equates to correctness.




I agree Ebon

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 9:46AM #42
REteach
Posts: 14,194

I often tell parents something like this:


What we are doing is looking at a kid in the middle of a lake in a rowboat going around in circles. We are trying to figure out why.


Some are going around in circles because they have ADHD. They can't get the rowboat going in a straight line because they are constantly distracted--ooh, look! A bird!  Ooh, look! a fish.


Then there are kids who are going around in circles because they have a problem with an oar. No matter how hard they try, the keep going around in circles because they can't get both oars biting equally into the water.


There are some kids going around in circles because someone on shore is saying "get over here right now" and the kid is saying "haha, you can't make me!"


Then there are a few who are so anxious or depressed they can't row at all.  They just drift. 


And there can be any combination of the above. 



I will sometimes suggest the family do a medication trial.  Ask the teachers to rate the kid every day for a few weeks. Give them a long acting stimulant some days and not others and see if the teachers notice.  One mom last week told me the first day she gave the med (without the teaching knowing they were starting) the teacher told the principal that the child was now on meds.  


Untreated teens with ADHD are more likely to end up on drugs, in legal trouble and having car accidents. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 9:49AM #43
REteach
Posts: 14,194

Mar 10, 2012 -- 6:25AM, Fodaoson wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:18AM, Ebon wrote:


Medicine (especially neurology and psychiatry) is one of those areas where everyone considers themselves an expert. And not simply an expert but the greatest of all experts. Law and education suffer from the same problem, the unjustified assumption that the uneducated opinion one just pulled out of one's behind is superior to the learned opinions of those who have devoted their lives to studying the area. I suspect this is an inherent flaw of democracies: The assumption that because your voice counts (which it does) that it should be given equal weight (which it should not). Yes, the experts in any area are sometimes wrong but they are a great deal more likely to be right than the random man in the street. This doesn't happen to other trained professionals. People don't walk up to engineers and say "you've put that bridge up wrong". Passersby do not accost farmers and tell them that they've put the wrong crop in a field. Only in medicine, education and law do people consider their uninformed and uneducated opinions are clearly correct and all who don't agree are clearly wrong.


One of the things I loathe about American society (and there are many things I like and admire about American society) is this streak of anti-intellectualism and instant expertise. The assumption that one opinion is just as good as another's facts; the discounting of actual evidence and data in favour of the gut feeling, the appeal to the knuckledragging prejudices of the common volk and the assumption that popularity equates to correctness.




I agree Ebon



I agree as well.  My husband called it "a great op-ed piece."

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 11:19AM #44
mountain_man
Posts: 38,745

Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:18AM, Ebon wrote:

Medicine (especially neurology and psychiatry) is one of those areas where everyone considers themselves an expert. And not simply an expert but the greatest of all experts. Law and education suffer from the same problem, the unjustified assumption that the uneducated opinion one just pulled out of one's behind is superior to the learned opinions of those who have devoted their lives to studying the area. ....


Which is an absurd opinion for one to hold. The belief that everyone thinks they are an expert on any of those topics cannot based on reality.

Moderated by Merope on Apr 01, 2012 - 05:03PM
Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 11:26AM #45
teilhard
Posts: 50,017

IOW, "Just shut up and take these Pills ... "


Mar 10, 2012 -- 9:49AM, REteach wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 6:25AM, Fodaoson wrote:


Mar 10, 2012 -- 4:18AM, Ebon wrote:


Medicine (especially neurology and psychiatry) is one of those areas where everyone considers themselves an expert. And not simply an expert but the greatest of all experts. Law and education suffer from the same problem, the unjustified assumption that the uneducated opinion one just pulled out of one's behind is superior to the learned opinions of those who have devoted their lives to studying the area. I suspect this is an inherent flaw of democracies: The assumption that because your voice counts (which it does) that it should be given equal weight (which it should not). Yes, the experts in any area are sometimes wrong but they are a great deal more likely to be right than the random man in the street. This doesn't happen to other trained professionals. People don't walk up to engineers and say "you've put that bridge up wrong". Passersby do not accost farmers and tell them that they've put the wrong crop in a field. Only in medicine, education and law do people consider their uninformed and uneducated opinions are clearly correct and all who don't agree are clearly wrong.


One of the things I loathe about American society (and there are many things I like and admire about American society) is this streak of anti-intellectualism and instant expertise. The assumption that one opinion is just as good as another's facts; the discounting of actual evidence and data in favour of the gut feeling, the appeal to the knuckledragging prejudices of the common volk and the assumption that popularity equates to correctness.




I agree Ebon



I agree as well.  My husband called it "a great op-ed piece."





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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 12:34PM #46
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,338

Again, the perspective of a special educator.


I would say about HALF the kids I work with are medicated.  The other half are not.


Those kids who are medicated DO seem to do better on their studies BUT medication is no panacea.  Many of them complain of nausea or headaches.  Their ability to focus is not constant, and seems to diminish over time if their dosages are not adjusted to compensate for growth or the body's attempts to build a tolerance for the new chemistry.  Sometimes, the medication is not at all effective, because parents do not have the kid take it daily, and there has to be a constant buildup to work, or because the medication just flat doesn't work for the kid.


The behavior in these kids is somewhat erratic.  They have good days and bad days.  Overall, their behavior IS more controlled, and their ability to focus is improved, as evidenced by improved performance and grades.  Most are able to succeed in school and go on to have productive lives.


Then there are those kids have ADHD but don't get medicated.  Some CAN'T be medicated because they have other disabling conditions in addition to ADHD, such as tourette's syndrome for example, and the ADHD medication aggravates the other condition.  Others aren't medicated because their parents choose not to medicate them.  These kids’ academic histories are more often than marked by failure, disruptive behavior, e.g., chattering, out of seat, looking around, saying the first thing that pops into their heads, arguing, fighting, temper tantrums, knocking over desks, and other disruptive impulsive behaviors, etc.  We often employ positive behavior intervention plans with them, to teach replacement behaviors to impulse and aggressive and provide incentives to encourage focus, and these often are somewhat effective for short times. 


But the fact remains, that unmedicated ADHD kids have to exert themselves well beyond what typical kids have to do to remain focused and control impulses, and while a few do have the force of will to succeed, most are not able to maintain that level of exertion, and, as such, give in to the impulses and become used to their failures due to their lack of focus.  These kids give trying to do well at school, become class clowns or troublemakers and use their energies to disrupt the school systems they feel has conspired against them, and invariably drop out and become troubled ADHD adults.


BTW I do not encourage parents to medicate their ADHD kids.  Legally speaking, I am no more qualified to give any advice about medication than I am to “diagnose” ADHD in their kids.  If directly asked by parents, I tell them that is a decision they need to make for themselves in consultation with their medical practitioner.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 1:12PM #47
teilhard
Posts: 50,017

Yes ... Even Kids who DO have ADHD entirely APPROPRIATELY diagnosed and medicated are NOT all exactly ALIKE ...


And PROBABLY some of those ADHD-diagnosed-and-medicated Children are in Fact in Reality simply "Kinesthetic" in their Neuro-Linguistic Programming (as per, Bandler and Grinder), i.e., they are by their own Nature inclined to MOVE as they Learn -- in Fact they move in ORDER to Learn (which drives most Teachers and Parents NUTS) ... In my own family my own (adopted) Son was/is one such Kid who was diagnosed and medicated INAPPROPRIATELY ... 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 2:32PM #48
REteach
Posts: 14,194

Don't blame all health care providers because you took your kids to the wrong one. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 2:37PM #49
REteach
Posts: 14,194

I spent over an hour talking to a dad last week. He even admitted that his son was inattentive and starting to have a hard time at school. Finally he admitted that his biggest problem was that he didn't want to admit anything was wrong with his son.  Who, btw, was a really sweet awesome kid who just couldn't pay attention.  I suspect that is the real problem for a lot of people. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 2:43PM #50
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,338

Teilhard, all healthcare providers are NOT created equal, and there are misdiagnoses.


Again, a decision to go with a doctor's diagnosis of ADHD AND the decision to medicate should be INDIVIDUALLY made by the parents, and only after a careful and intelligent weighing of the facts and reviewing the options available to them, and not on some emotional and ignorant rant on a discussion board.


Yes, doctors do screw up and make a wrong diagnosis


And, yes, even when the diagnosis is correct and the decision to medicate is proper, it's STILL a roller coaster in trying to determine the right meds and the correct dosages.


There are, however, not near as many misdiagnoses as you make out to be.


And you drumming out a constant DO NOT MEDICATE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES rant may actually do some parents and their child a disservice...


p.s.  I hope you have found a competent doctor who was able to correctly identify your son's condition, and that your son is thriving at school.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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