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Switch to Forum Live View EM Cioran, insomnia, subtle energy for mind, two selves and the soul
3 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2011 - 1:03PM #1
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

This thread was headed one way yesterday and took a new direction as an ordered book came yesterday (Of Two Minds, The Revolutionary Science of Dual-Brain Psychology by Fredric Schiffer, M.D.), and turned out to be most excellent. But I'll start with E.M. Cioran and maybe come to Schiffer later, except to say that Schiffer may have found the physical basis for what we call the soul [my speculation from his research, not his point, as of page 50] .

EM Cioran is a favorite writer, actually pretty dreary, but I would have liked him in my 20's when I was pretty dreary myself. He lived in France and much of his writing came as a result of hours of insomnia. However, he accidentally discovered a cure. He would get on his bicycle and ride the streets of Paris until sleep came.

Scientists, even today, do not really know why we sleep or why we need to dream. All we really know is that if we do not sleep or dream in sleep, our psychology gets really screwy (as an aside, there is actually a disease passed on genetically that makes it impossible to sleep. It's very rare but those whose genes kick it in, all eventually die because of not being able to sleep. Seen on a TV program, do not recall the name of the disorder....).

But, from my (esoteric) study in the 70's (my 20's), I found a reason for sleep, and a reason for insomnia. (As another aside, I have much personal experience which is "tacit" knowledge, unable to be passed on to others. I'm always thinking of means to pass it on however, this thread being one). Every day we create a certain quality and quantity of energy for our physical, muscular, needs. We must use up this energy every day, if not, we can't sleep. When we sleep, our physiology is creating a new supply of energy for the next day. Let's say our body uses a certain quality of energy (which scientists can of course measure). If there are any insomniacs out there, here's the simple solution. You probably have a sedentary career and therefore do not use up all the energy created for the physical body. Exercise more, you'll eventually go to sleep (Cioran's accidental discovery). If you doubt me, find someone who has manual labor involved in his job, ask him if he has trouble going to sleep).

But beyond this, our emotions use a certain quality of energy, and we also use a certain quality of energy for thinking (the former being a finer energy, and actually thus more intelligent than thought). So, we dream in order to use up the excess emotional energy and the excess mental energy. Scientists, as of yet, have not discovered this more subtle energy used by the mind and emotions.

So why this thread? If there exists a certain quality of energy in our organism that science can't measure and so doesn't know about, maybe this is an indication of the possibility of a yet finer energy, the energy our soul functions through.

So, how can I link one to the other? Can mental energy be demonstrated? Have you ever been utterly exhausted mentally? I suspect there are at least several here who have, all-night-er's writing a paper or studying for a test. I'll share an example. In about 1980 or '81 when The Rubic's Cube came out, I bought one. That weekend I went to the beach. One day I puzzled over the cube eight hours straight, hardly stopping to eat. At the end of eight hours, my mind "decided" to quit functioning. I literally could not think. I could not think clearly enough to make any further productive effort with then cube. It was actually quite fascinating, the mind refusing to think. But I immediately knew what had happened (having read about the quality of energy needed for thinking). My physiology had used up the day's supply of "mental" energy. I knew I would be OK the next day (and I was).

........OK.......I'm at the library and my computer time is almost up...


I will simply add that in his book, Schiffer believes he has found two selves.......in the Right & Left hemispheres of the brain.


.....tbc.......

stardustpilgrim 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2011 - 4:44PM #2
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

From Schiffer's study, he developed a simple method to separate the hemispheres of the brain. This had been done, in a rather drastic manner, by Roger Sperry who later won a Noble Prize for his study. In the '60's, for certain patients who had epilepsy, Sperry cut the Corpus callosum, the bundle of nerves connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain hoping to minimize the storm of epilepsy.


What Sperry discovered was that there were essentially two selves, one functioning through the right brain and one through the left brain. Schiffer took this one step further to discover that his patients in therapy also had two selves living within, again, one functioning through each hemisphere. It had not been known that one could separate the functioning of the two hemispheres without cutting the Corpus collosum. But in his study and research, Schiffer for a means to do so. The right eye sends its info to the left brain and the left eye sends its info to the right brain, except for a slight detail. The right half of the left eye sends info to both hemispheres, and the left half of the right eye sends info to both hemispheres, by way of ther Corpus collosum. But Schiffer discovered that the outside half, or really outside third, of each eye does not share info with both hemispheres. So.... 


Now a simple test you can try.


Cover one eye and 2/3 of the inside of the other eye with your hand, and see what happens.


Or, get a set of safety goggles and cover one side in the described manner with some dark tape, and then reverse the process. Schiffer got sigificant results with 60% of his patients.


sdp


 

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2011 - 6:23PM #3
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Did anybody try blocking their vision as described in post #2?


I'll describe later the results Schiffer got from his patients (seeing out of the outer part of each eye does not give the same results for everyone).


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 31, 2011 - 4:32PM #4
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Schiffer hasn't mentioned the word soul yet, but about pg 65-70 he does say that our true nature seems to reside in our right hemisphere. This confirms my speculations (I would equate soul, true self and true nature).


I'm going to quote from a dialogue betwween Schiffer and a patient. This is the first time the patient has seen or used the left and right goggles, and did not know what they were for, did not know in any way whatsoever what he might experience.......


"So you're looking out the right side [left brain],", I asked.


(Pause of 30 seconds) "Uh huh."


"How does that feel?"


"I feel the same--kind of nervous."


"And how would you rate your anxiety: none, mild, moderate, quite a bit, or extreme?"


"I'd say moderate. The point that I have a stomachache almost. Nervous."


"Do you feel sad?"


"Yeah, I feel kind of grayish."


"How would you rate that?"


"I'd say moderate."


"Ah huh, try the other glasses." (30-second pause) "Now you're looking out the left side [Right brain]."


(30-second pause) "Yeah."


"How do you feel?"


"I feel relaxed. I feel like I'm calming down. That's how I feel: calming down. Things don't look really bright, but they don't look as gray as they were."


"How anxious do you feel: none, mild, moderate, quite a bit, or extreme?"


"I'd say mild right now. Maybe in a few minutes it will almost...it feels like it's just calming down kind of effect."


"And how sad do you feel?"


"I don't really feel sad. I don't feel happy; I don't feel sad."


"Would you say: none, mild, moderate, quite a bit, or extreme?"


"I don't feel sad. I'd say none. I'd say I feel nonemotional at this point."


"And what's your anxiety level now: none, mild, moderate, quite a bit, or extreme?"


"I'd say now it's none. I don't feel anxious at all."


"Now I want you to try the other glasses again [to the left brain]. (Forty-five-second pause) And how are you feeling."


"A little nervous, but not as nervous as I was before."


"How would you rate it?"


"I would say mild--mild right now."


"And sadness.......?"


"I'd say mild--mild sadness."


"Now which side feels more like you were feeling earlier today?"


"This side."


"Is there a difference between this side and the other side?"


"Yeah, a big difference. This is...well, I feel like opposite ends of emotions. I'm sad on this side, and I feel content on the other side. And I feel anxious over here, and I feel almost relaxed over there. So I feel a big difference."


"Now we were talking earlier about whether this anxiety relates to the past or not. Do you have any sense of that?"


"Yeah, it must."


"Tell me."


"Well, because I'm feeling exactly the way I've felt all day.....etc......... mildly anxious......."


...........


"Try the other glasses [right brain]." (40-second pause) "How are you feeling?"


"I feel like I'm just starting to feel calm. That's how I would explain it. More relaxed. I see things more maturely, I think, out of this side than the other side." ........pages 58,59 


....................


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 05, 2011 - 8:03PM #5
koala972
Posts: 863

i think that logic and reasoning is in the left brain?  The right brain is more artsy?


I'm saying that because a lot of the crap that people pull defies logic and reason.  So personally I think there is good reason to be anxious when faced with trying to make sense of it...


For example, I was told I had to be self-reliant and take care of things for myself.  Then I was told that I didn't have the experience, education, talent, temperament, and on and on to actually do this so I was a worthless peice of ****.  So then I figured ok I should rely on others.  I was told simply thinking about it made me a worthless peice of **** oh and by the way we aren't going to support you in this. 


What exactly is my response supposed to be to all this?  I'm really not supposed to be anxious when confronted with either of these two propositions? 


(Incidentally I personally think the autistic are just incredibly in tune with many social contradictions that are like this one at a subconscious level and it causes them to just freeze in their tracks).


As another example, the words for knowledge are really a bear.  For example when I say a common phrase to elucidate my thoughts, I might as well be talking about cruelty at least to some people.  Elucidate seems to have its own problems but at this point I don't care to think about it.  Adn the word 'understand'...  if you have it as a goal to ascend into the heavens the two words that together make up that one word don't seem so appealing so you might be tempted to drop the subject.  And don't even get me started on the word knowledge itself, the contradictions in that one word twist around like a snake... 


So just in considering the common words for gathering information, which is the cornerstone of logic and reason, there seems to be a lot of reason to be anxious...


There are a lot of words out there where if you will examine meanings other than the one you are accustomed to using, you will see there is a relationship between many of the meanings which seems almost designed to cause consternation and strife...  and I think this extends beyond words to phrases, sentences, paragraphs (and also in the other direction for anyone who wants to dig into it).


So I think your little meditation tells more about how people are responding to inanity than it does anything about true nature...


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 06, 2011 - 6:04PM #6
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

Apr 5, 2011 -- 8:03PM, koala972 wrote:


i think that logic and reasoning is in the left brain?  The right brain is more artsy?


I'm saying that because a lot of the crap that people pull defies logic and reason.  So personally I think there is good reason to be anxious when faced with trying to make sense of it...


For example, I was told I had to be self-reliant and take care of things for myself.  Then I was told that I didn't have the experience, education, talent, temperament, and on and on to actually do this so I was a worthless peice of ****.  So then I figured ok I should rely on others.  I was told simply thinking about it made me a worthless peice of **** oh and by the way we aren't going to support you in this. 


What exactly is my response supposed to be to all this?  I'm really not supposed to be anxious when confronted with either of these two propositions? 


(Incidentally I personally think the autistic are just incredibly in tune with many social contradictions that are like this one at a subconscious level and it causes them to just freeze in their tracks).


As another example, the words for knowledge are really a bear.  For example when I say a common phrase to elucidate my thoughts, I might as well be talking about cruelty at least to some people.  Elucidate seems to have its own problems but at this point I don't care to think about it.  Adn the word 'understand'...  if you have it as a goal to ascend into the heavens the two words that together make up that one word don't seem so appealing so you might be tempted to drop the subject.  And don't even get me started on the word knowledge itself, the contradictions in that one word twist around like a snake... 


So just in considering the common words for gathering information, which is the cornerstone of logic and reason, there seems to be a lot of reason to be anxious...


There are a lot of words out there where if you will examine meanings other than the one you are accustomed to using, you will see there is a relationship between many of the meanings which seems almost designed to cause consternation and strife...  and I think this extends beyond words to phrases, sentences, paragraphs (and also in the other direction for anyone who wants to dig into it).


So I think your little meditation tells more about how people are responding to inanity than it does anything about true nature...


 




Hey Koala.....yea, the right brain is more artsy, left brain logical. The right brain is more wholelistic & non-linear (sees the forest), the left brain is more linear......sees the trees. In most people (I think maybe 98%) the right brain is silent, can't speak. Sperry asked his subjects what was before them using their right brain (say it was an apple). They would say, "I don't know". But if several objects were placed before them, their left hand could pick out the apple......even while saying, "I don't know".


So I think traditional contemplative and meditative methods are (accidentally?) designed to gain access to the right brain (quietness, stillness, solitude...etc...).........


I have always liked your posts.....sorry about stuff people have 'put-on-you'.........we are all good at something. We have to discover who we are and that will help us find our place in life. I have always known I have a social disability. Basically when I was young I didn't know how to carry on a conversation.......I still really don't understand 'chit-chat' (talking just for the sake of talking...bla, bla, bla...ya-da...ya-da...ya-da... :-)......and I've learned that very few people really care about........other people. I hate being stepped on in conversation. I usually just drop what I was going to say........most people don't come back and say, "Now what were you saying?"..........


I have always been pretty-much a loner....introvert...shy....silent...non-verbal. Many years ago when I learned about autism, I figured I had been pretty close to being autistic. I've read that kids with autism probably don't have mirror neurons working properly.....(sort of like "monkey-see, monkey-do" neurons). So they can't copy other people and learn things the easy/natural way.


I think autistic kids live through their right (silent) brain. For some reason they can't connect with their left (public/social) cultural self, they don't actually properly form a cultural self. There was a nice little article in last weekends Parade magazine. Parents of one autistic girl who is now 20 only recently learned how smart their daughter is (they thought she was mostly blank inside...). She only recently learned to communicate by typing (she still can't talk).....


Anyway.......thanks.........


sdp

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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