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Switch to Forum Live View Why bother with evolution?
3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 12:23PM #111
arielg
Posts: 9,094

Feb 10, 2011 -- 11:51AM, mountain_man wrote:

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC. ....


And instead fall for the illogic of a religion? No thanks.




Good example of Aristotelian logic.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 12:26PM #112
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037
Darwin Day is in two days. Here is a place you can go and support Congressman Pete Stark (one of the few good guys in Congress) in his Darwin Day Resolution. House Resolution 81.

Here's a quote from the link: "In a statement, Representative Stark said, “Darwin’s birthday is a  good time for us to reflect on the important role of science in our  society. It is also a time to redouble our efforts to ensure that  children are being taught scientific facts, not religious dogma, and to  fight back against those who seek to undermine the science of climate  change for political ends.”

This resolution could not have come at a more important time. The New York Times recently reported that only 28 percent of biology teachers present  evidence for evolution as recommended by the National Research Council,  while 13 percent “explicitly advocate” creationism."

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 12:27PM #113
mountain_man
Posts: 38,037

Feb 10, 2011 -- 12:23PM, arielg wrote:

Feb 10, 2011 -- 11:51AM, mountain_man wrote:

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC. ....


And instead fall for the illogic of a religion? No thanks.


Good example of Aristotelian logic.


Your reply was a good example of religous dhogma.

Dave - Just a Man in the Mountains.

I am a Humanist. I believe in a rational philosophy of life, informed by science, inspired by art, and motivated by a desire to do good for its own sake and not by an expectation of a reward or fear of punishment in an afterlife.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 12:29PM #114
mindis1
Posts: 7,087
P=

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.


Ariel, do you claim that both P and not-P are true?




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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 3:03PM #115
arielg
Posts: 9,094

Feb 10, 2011 -- 12:29PM, mindis1 wrote:

P=

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.


Ariel, do you claim that both P and not-P are true?






What is a "P"?

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 3:41PM #116
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Feb 10, 2011 -- 3:03PM, arielg wrote:

Feb 10, 2011 -- 12:29PM, mindis1 wrote:

P=

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.


Ariel, do you claim that both P and not-P are true?






What is a "P"?





Standard notation in logic.  Some say it stands for "Proposition" or "Premise."

For instance, in classical logic, modus Tollens is stated:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 4:43PM #117
arielg
Posts: 9,094
Thanx, CL
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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 6:18PM #118
mindis1
Posts: 7,087

Feb 10, 2011 -- 3:03PM, arielg wrote:

Feb 10, 2011 -- 12:29PM, mindis1 wrote:

P=

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.


Ariel, do you claim that both P and not-P are true?






What is a "P"?


In this case, Ariel, P is the proposition, “The East never fell victim to any kind of Aristotelian logic,” and not-P is the negation of P.

Most people (I think) around the world would agree that if P is true, then not-P is false. The law of non-contradiction is basically the basis of Aristotelian logic, along with the law of excluded middle and the law of identity. What were you referring to as “any kind of Aristotelian logic”?

Prior to Aristotle’s articulation, the law of non-contradiction was noted in Plato’s The Republic. It was also noted and discussed extensively in several ancient Indian texts, such as the Brahma Sutras.

So I don’t know what you were referring by “The East never fell victim to any kind of Aristotelian logic.” Frankly it sounds kind of insulting to “the East”. Certainly the peoples of the East did engage in logical thought, and the thinkers of the East engaged in and examined the principles of logical thought.

And if you agree that P and not-P are not both true, then you are using Aristotelian logic.

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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 6:54PM #119
Erey
Posts: 17,320

Feb 10, 2011 -- 6:18PM, mindis1 wrote:

Feb 10, 2011 -- 3:03PM, arielg wrote:

Feb 10, 2011 -- 12:29PM, mindis1 wrote:

P=

Feb 9, 2011 -- 11:25PM, arielg wrote:

THE EAST NEVER FELL VICTIM TO ANY KIND OF ARISTOTELIAN LOGIC.


Ariel, do you claim that both P and not-P are true?






What is a "P"?


In this case, Ariel, P is the proposition, “The East never fell victim to any kind of Aristotelian logic,” and not-P is the negation of P.

Most people (I think) around the world would agree that if P is true, then not-P is false. The law of non-contradiction is basically the basis of Aristotelian logic, along with the law of excluded middle and the law of identity. What were you referring to as “any kind of Aristotelian logic”?

Prior to Aristotle’s articulation, the law of non-contradiction was noted in Plato’s The Republic. It was also noted and discussed extensively in several ancient Indian texts, such as the Brahma Sutras.

So I don’t know what you were referring by “The East never fell victim to any kind of Aristotelian logic.” Frankly it sounds kind of insulting to “the East”. Certainly the peoples of the East did engage in logical thought, and the thinkers of the East engaged in and examined the principles of logical thought.

And if you agree that P and not-P are not both true, then you are using Aristotelian logic.




I am not a philosophy major, if you think you know more about classic philosphy than I do you are probably right. 

But I do think you sometimes miss it when you assume that P being true means not P is false.  P can be true and Not P can be true also.    Lots of things are true in one context and with very minor shifts in perception are not true.

I think the asian mind sees the whole setting and context and less the likely to see or put importance to a particular feature.  The western mind sees the main feature and pays less attention to the setting. 

I don't think either way is superior or inferior both have their strengths and weaknesses.  I think it is best to be aware of both to enhance your understanding through seeing both methods. 


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3 years ago  ::  Feb 10, 2011 - 7:05PM #120
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848
Erey,
The topic of P not P is not "ancient philosophy".  It is logic, a branch of mathmatics.  Although it was first postulated by ancient philosophers, and therefore some systems and parts bear their names, it is not a matter of "philosophy" as in "opinion."

What mindis is saying is that whether you are asian or not, two absolutely diametrically opposed facts cannot both be true.   A number cannot both be 1 AND 3.   (Well, there are some systems of theoretical math where that could be postulated, but for we everyday folks, it is true.)  You can have either one apple, or three apples.

(Unless you want to play word games and say, "I have 10 apples.  Here is one, I also have these three."  But that is semantical, not logical.)
Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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