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Switch to Forum Live View A wandering minstrel, I
4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 4:22PM #1
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Here is a thread for wandering, meandering conversations.


The "topic" is whatever we are talking about.  Ergo, there will never be any off-topic posts.


I'm currently reading a fascinating new book on dealing with death by John Shelby Spong.


Do you know of him and his work?

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Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 6:38PM #2
Jcarlinbn
Posts: 6,999

Hear, Hear!  For all of you needing to say something but can't find a topical thread please, please post it here.


jcbn 


It has been a while since I read Spong.  But I was quite enthusiastic about the direction he was attempting to take the church.  I was not at all surprised by the resistance offered by the church.  But I do think he made a significant difference in the way non-fundamentalist Christians viewed the church and their faith.  And not only the Episcopalians.  I think his influence among thoughtful Christians of all faiths has made all Christians better for having to deal with his thinking.  


 


Jul 21, 2010 -- 4:22PM, Christianlib wrote:


Here is a thread for wandering, meandering conversations.


The "topic" is whatever we are talking about.  Ergo, there will never be any off-topic posts.


I'm currently reading a fascinating new book on dealing with death by John Shelby Spong.


Do you know of him and his work?





Jcarlinbn, community moderator
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 7:27PM #3
costrel
Posts: 6,216

Jul 21, 2010 -- 4:22PM, Christianlib wrote:

I'm currently reading a fascinating new book on dealing with death by John Shelby Spong.


Do you know of him and his work?


The only book I have read by Spong is Why Christianity Must Change or Die, which I read a decade ago now. I don't recall a lot about it, but I seem to recall that the book was something about rejecting literalism, so-called "fundamentalism," and the historical and literal nature of the Creeds, and advocated a "progressive" Christianity that accepted evolution, an old earth, Existentialism, God as the "Ground of Being," etc. If I remember the book rightly, I would have to say that I disagree with him. Christianity began as a social revolutionary experiment in asceticism, renunciation, and communal living, and most forms of Christianity have unfortunately abandoned these traditions. It seems to me that what Christianity needs to do is get back to its ascetical, renunciatory, and communistic roots -- that is, to the ways of living practiced by the First Century Apostolic Jerusalem Church as well as the early 3rd and 4th century monastic movements. Of course, this would be more revolutionary than any Socialist or Communist revolution. American Christians, though, could start by reading Athanasius's Life of St. Antony: www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/vita-anton...

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2010 - 8:54PM #4
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

I've read all the ancient, and ancient minded, RCC theologians I feel I want to.  And THAT, actually, is a lot of them.


On the other hand, before you get too wrapped up in accusing Spong of taking the church in "Socialistic" or "Comunistic" directions, you might look into RCC Latin American  "Liberation Theology" writers and actors.


Now,  I didn't say I was "following" or "going to follow" Spong.  I said I was reading his latest. I happen to read a LOT of theology, church and Christian history, and studies on the Historical Jesus.  These things make one think, and thinking is a gift from God, don't you imagine?


 

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 6:38AM #5
costrel
Posts: 6,216

Jul 21, 2010 -- 8:54PM, Christianlib wrote:

I've read all the ancient, and ancient minded, RCC theologians I feel I want to.  And THAT, actually, is a lot of them.


How about the ancient and ancient-minded Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Russian, and Palestinian ones? They're not RCC.


On the other hand, before you get too wrapped up in accusing Spong of taking the church in "Socialistic" or "Comunistic" directions, you might look into RCC Latin American  "Liberation Theology" writers and actors.


Good grief! No where in my post did I accuse Spong of taking the church in Socialistic or Communistic directions! I guess I'm going to have to be very clear from now on in my posts, since it seems as if the Christians on this science board misinterpret nearly every post I put over here! My point was that American Christians seem so fearful of our government being "hijacked" by Socialists and Communists -- and even secularists and humanists, yet if American Christians (including Roman Catholics) actually returned to their ascetical and communistic roots (communistic with a lower-case "c" here, in the way that the Hutterian Brethren use the word in their literature), this would be a greater revolution than any so-called "Socialistic" of "Communistic" revolutions that American Christians are so fearful of the Obama Democrats and the Left inflicting upon this nation. Now, I hope I've made myself clear this time.


Now,  I didn't say I was "following" or "going to follow" Spong.  I said I was reading his latest. I happen to read a LOT of theology, church and Christian history, and studies on the Historical Jesus.  These things make one think, and thinking is a gift from God, don't you imagine?


If there is at least one god (or goddess), then I suppose that thinking is probably gift from him (or her). And I didn't say you were "following" or "going to follow" him either. Spong, though, does not appear to simply write Christian theology for the sake of thinking or knowledge, but writes with the intention of changing a Church that he thinks is going to kill itself off if it does not change. It seems as if Spong believes that the Church (at least the Western Church) will either self-destruct from the inside out, or become so irrelevant that Westerners will abandon it for something that they consider more relevant. Thus, Spong seems to have concluded that Christianity's greatest enemy is itself, and not Communists, Socialists, humanists, secularists, atheists, Muslim terrorists, or even Satan and the demons, and that if Christians are resistant to change, Christianity (again, at least in the West) will cease to exist.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 12:07PM #6
Wendyness
Posts: 3,013

CL,


Since you have spent time in Vietnam I thought I would share this sweet story with you.  There is a salon where there is a vietnamese woman works that is  probably in her early fifties that grew up in South Vietnam.  Her father was orphaned early and was forced to move to survive from the North to the South, literally living in the jungle.  He became a martial arts master.  Her mother had come from money and after the communists moved in her family was stripped of everything and forced into South Vietnam. This little village where she grew up in South Vietnam had a Catholic church. Neither one of her parents had any religion, their  religion was survival.  As a little girl her curiosity got the best of her one day and she went into the Catholic church.  When her parents found out they told her that she was not Catholic and that she shouldn't go into the church.  This, however, did not stop her.  As the years went by she learned to read the Bible and she would take communion but she never experienced God, she was just going through the motions.  She said she would dream of someday wearing a white communion dress and that someday she would marry a wonderful Catholic man and have a beautiful white wedding gown. When the conflict in South Vietnam intensified and her father had been killed by the Communists she would go into the church, take the holy water, cross herself and go to the Saint Joseph statue. She said she would pray that she would believe in Jesus if God would get her out of Vietnam, she did this everyday for months.  As she was telling me this story she then exclaimed, "then somehow I get out of Vietnam!"  As she was telling the story tears started to roll down her eyes, and she tells me how can I not believe in "my Jesus?".  She experienced something very deep and profound on her journey to America.  She did also add that God did not answer all her dreams, she never got to wear a white communion dress and she didn't marry a Catholic man, she married a Buddhist (lol). 

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 12:28PM #7
Christianlib
Posts: 21,848

Jul 22, 2010 -- 6:38AM, costrel wrote:


Jul 21, 2010 -- 8:54PM, Christianlib wrote:

I've read all the ancient, and ancient minded, RCC theologians I feel I want to.  And THAT, actually, is a lot of them.


How about the ancient and ancient-minded Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Russian, and Palestinian ones? They're not RCC.


On the other hand, before you get too wrapped up in accusing Spong of taking the church in "Socialistic" or "Comunistic" directions, you might look into RCC Latin American  "Liberation Theology" writers and actors.


Good grief! No where in my post did I accuse Spong of taking the church in Socialistic or Communistic directions! I guess I'm going to have to be very clear from now on in my posts, since it seems as if the Christians on this science board misinterpret nearly every post I put over here! My point was that American Christians seem so fearful of our government being "hijacked" by Socialists and Communists -- and even secularists and humanists, yet if American Christians (including Roman Catholics) actually returned to their ascetical and communistic roots (communistic with a lower-case "c" here, in the way that the Hutterian Brethren use the word in their literature), this would be a greater revolution than any so-called "Socialistic" of "Communistic" revolutions that American Christians are so fearful of the Obama Democrats and the Left inflicting upon this nation. Now, I hope I've made myself clear this time.


Now,  I didn't say I was "following" or "going to follow" Spong.  I said I was reading his latest. I happen to read a LOT of theology, church and Christian history, and studies on the Historical Jesus.  These things make one think, and thinking is a gift from God, don't you imagine?


If there is at least one god (or goddess), then I suppose that thinking is probably gift from him (or her). And I didn't say you were "following" or "going to follow" him either. Spong, though, does not appear to simply write Christian theology for the sake of thinking or knowledge, but writes with the intention of changing a Church that he thinks is going to kill itself off if it does not change. It seems as if Spong believes that the Church (at least the Western Church) will either self-destruct from the inside out, or become so irrelevant that Westerners will abandon it for something that they consider more relevant. Thus, Spong seems to have concluded that Christianity's greatest enemy is itself, and not Communists, Socialists, humanists, secularists, atheists, Muslim terrorists, or even Satan and the demons, and that if Christians are resistant to change, Christianity (again, at least in the West) will cease to exist.




Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.


For clarification, since I, myself, am somewhat of a "lefty" Christian.  A Democrat.  I have no fear of Obama "doing anything to the nation."


I observe the church, and think there is much to what  Spong says about Christians being the real enemies of Christianity.


Also, as to the "Coptics, etc.......", I have read what I can.  I HAVE read as much of the Gnostic materials that I can find in translation--plus commentaries.  I do have one advantage there, my daughter is a linguist who specializes in Coptic manuscripts, and in the Nag Hammadi find.  We have had, and have, long discussions.


 

Democrats think the glass is half full.
Republicans think the glass is theirs.
Libertarians want to break the glass, because they think a conspiracy created it.
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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 12:58PM #8
Wendyness
Posts: 3,013



 


OMG!  I would love to know someone that is a linguist who specializes in Coptic manuscripts!  The Nag Hammadi find was exceedingly slow to see the light of day due to the powers of wealth, control, church, state fearing the population should be "awakened" by them.  Codex l in the manuscripts, at one timed was owned by, you want to take a guess?.........Carl Jung.  I have a particular fondness for the Book of Enoch.

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 7:10PM #9
teilhard
Posts: 48,228

But ... If I post something "Wandering" in THIS Thread, then THAT Post would NOT be "Off-Topic" for this Thread, which would then mean that my On-Topic OFF-Topic Post would be "Off-Topic," and therefore "Objectionable," yes ... ???

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4 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2010 - 7:25PM #10
teilhard
Posts: 48,228

ONE of The Meanings of The Discovery of The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Nag Hammadi Library, The Mayan Calendar, etc., etc., etc., is that we THEN hope-imagine-hope-and-imagine again that NOW ( finally ) we ( they; somebody ) have FOUND The KEY ... !!!


Jul 22, 2010 -- 12:28PM, Christianlib wrote:


Jul 22, 2010 -- 6:38AM, costrel wrote:


Jul 21, 2010 -- 8:54PM, Christianlib wrote:

I've read all the ancient, and ancient minded, RCC theologians I feel I want to.  And THAT, actually, is a lot of them.


How about the ancient and ancient-minded Greek, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, Russian, and Palestinian ones? They're not RCC.


On the other hand, before you get too wrapped up in accusing Spong of taking the church in "Socialistic" or "Comunistic" directions, you might look into RCC Latin American  "Liberation Theology" writers and actors.


Good grief! No where in my post did I accuse Spong of taking the church in Socialistic or Communistic directions! I guess I'm going to have to be very clear from now on in my posts, since it seems as if the Christians on this science board misinterpret nearly every post I put over here! My point was that American Christians seem so fearful of our government being "hijacked" by Socialists and Communists -- and even secularists and humanists, yet if American Christians (including Roman Catholics) actually returned to their ascetical and communistic roots (communistic with a lower-case "c" here, in the way that the Hutterian Brethren use the word in their literature), this would be a greater revolution than any so-called "Socialistic" of "Communistic" revolutions that American Christians are so fearful of the Obama Democrats and the Left inflicting upon this nation. Now, I hope I've made myself clear this time.


Now,  I didn't say I was "following" or "going to follow" Spong.  I said I was reading his latest. I happen to read a LOT of theology, church and Christian history, and studies on the Historical Jesus.  These things make one think, and thinking is a gift from God, don't you imagine?


If there is at least one god (or goddess), then I suppose that thinking is probably gift from him (or her). And I didn't say you were "following" or "going to follow" him either. Spong, though, does not appear to simply write Christian theology for the sake of thinking or knowledge, but writes with the intention of changing a Church that he thinks is going to kill itself off if it does not change. It seems as if Spong believes that the Church (at least the Western Church) will either self-destruct from the inside out, or become so irrelevant that Westerners will abandon it for something that they consider more relevant. Thus, Spong seems to have concluded that Christianity's greatest enemy is itself, and not Communists, Socialists, humanists, secularists, atheists, Muslim terrorists, or even Satan and the demons, and that if Christians are resistant to change, Christianity (again, at least in the West) will cease to exist.




Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement.


For clarification, since I, myself, am somewhat of a "lefty" Christian.  A Democrat.  I have no fear of Obama "doing anything to the nation."


I observe the church, and think there is much to what  Spong says about Christians being the real enemies of Christianity.


Also, as to the "Coptics, etc.......", I have read what I can.  I HAVE read as much of the Gnostic materials that I can find in translation--plus commentaries.  I do have one advantage there, my daughter is a linguist who specializes in Coptic manuscripts, and in the Nag Hammadi find.  We have had, and have, long discussions.


 





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